Dowding and 'big wing'

ivanotter

All,

We have probably been here before - a lot of times as well.

If we try to look at it a bit different, and in the light of the following facts, is there another twist to it?

Facts:
1) Dowding was supposed to be on pension as early as June 1939
2) Dowding resisted the dispatch of squadrons to France (not him alone though)
3) Dowding was 'obsessed' with the RDF system (controller system, filter rooms, etc etc).

Let us imagine that:
1) Dowding is out by 1 July 1939
2) Sotho is in
3) Parks is out as well
4) Leigh-Malory takes over 11 group

The questions to get in on will then be:
1) Will Sotho dispatch more squadrons to France?
2) Will RDF be pursued with vigour?
3) Impact on BoB with 11 group doing big wings

I read somewhere (I think) that Park claimed that 'big wings' could work for 12 group as they had more scramble-time enabling them to form up etc. He claimed that he did not have the luxury of time in 11 group, wherefore it would not work for him.

In essence: Could Sotho and Leigh-Malory 'lose' BoB?

Ivan
 

phx1138

ivanotter said:
Could Sotho and Leigh-Malory 'lose' BoB?
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I'm presuming you mean William Sholto Douglas.;)

Short answer: yes. This was wargamed after the battle (postwar?), & it was found the Big Wing was a disaster.:eek:

The issue is, would German stupidity be worse than Douglas'? It might be...
 

Riain

Banned
It wouldn't take many disasters to change the concept. The RAF did a fair bit of tactical evolution during the BoB starting with the 3 aircraft 'vics' they were using.
 

zert

I do not have enough knowledge to say for sure, but I personally think the Big Wings was a crap idea and cost too many civilians and pilots their lives due to the stubbornness of Leigh-Malory.
 

pdf27

zert said:
I do not have enough knowledge to say for sure, but I personally think the Big Wings was a crap idea and cost too many civilians and pilots their lives due to the stubbornness of Leigh-Malory.
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The problem is that in OTL he saw the increased scores being racked up and got the good feedback from his pilots about how they outnumbered the Germans and it felt good - but it wasn't his airfields being bombed or his pilots fighting against overwhelming odds waiting for reinforcements who were swanning about over East Anglia. Put him in charge of 11 Group with his airfields being bombed and either he'll very rapidly change his plans (or just not adopt the Big Wing in the first place), or will be replaced when Portal et al realise he's losing.
 

Ian Hathaway

Strangely enough I've been thinking about something similar myself over the past week or two, so a few comments.

  1. You don't need the removal of Dowding for any of this to happen, the only point outside of my thoughts is the RDF/Chain Home question. Simply put, even with Dowding's removal Chain Home was already a well established idea tied in with the defence system as a whole. It is doubtful this would have changed whether Dowding is there or not. Keep Dowding is the simple answer.
  2. Pre-BoB both 11 and 12 Groups were expected to carry the brunt of the attacks especially before the invasion of France when most attacks would most likely come via the East Coast. Therefore Leigh Mallory and Park had equal footing when they were assigned their respective Groups. The chances of Leigh Mallory being given 11 Group were not really down to Dowding being in charge so switching this round is not totally reliant on who is in overall command of Fighter Command.
  3. The chances of Leigh Mallory using "Big Wing" tactics if he is in charge of 11 Group are remote. They were the brainchild of Douglas Bader a 12 Group pilot. If Leigh Mallory was in charge of 11 Group he would not be exposed to Bader's theories. The big difference however was in Park's and Mallory's ideas of how the battle could be won. Park was very much in tune with Dowding and dispatched his fighters sparingly to disrupt raids as much as possible before they hit their targets, he knew it wasn't a pure battle of attrition and that for the RAF to win they needed to stay as intact as possible. Leigh Mallory on the other hand saw the victory aims differently, he believed to win he should cause maximum damage to the Luftwaffe at any cost. That's why the Big Wing appealed to him, it inflicted maximum damage on the Luftwaffe (or at least that's what Bader told him with inflated claims). He didn't care about disrupting raids only in shooting down aircraft whether it was before the raid had taken place or after... if that meant scrambling all of his squadrons en-masse and risking his planes, pilots and infrastructure so be it, as long as they shot down hordes of enemy aircraft. I'd be interested to know whether Mallory would have gone after fighter only raids to inflict max damage, something Park avoided at all costs.
 

merlin

Park would send up pairs of squadrons, in contrast DB started with two, went to three, then to five! Trouble was he insisted he insisted they stay together en-masse even though they were Hurricanes & Spitfires - with different climbing speeds and angles.
DB also had the bizarre idea that with the bombers assembling over France, 12 Group should be scrambled - doh.
SD - was also a proponent of wanted to knock as many down as possible.

It is possible for the Germans to do better, better intel. helps, but mainly it's the RAF that needs to do worse for it to happen.

No, if no Dowding we don't know Courtney's (?) attitude to the final request for more Hurricanes for the lost cause.

On the other hand:
- what if, Dowding sacks/transfers LM after the airfields fiasco, and/or evidence of skulduggery,
- or LM didn't become AoC 12 Group in the 1st place - still in the Middle-East or in France with Army Co-op??
 

Ian Hathaway

merlin said:
Park would send up pairs of squadrons, in contrast DB started with two, went to three, then to five! Trouble was he insisted he insisted they stay together en-masse even though they were Hurricanes & Spitfires - with different climbing speeds and angles.
DB also had the bizarre idea that with the bombers assembling over France, 12 Group should be scrambled - doh.
SD - was also a proponent of wanted to knock as many down as possible.
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Park's two squadron thing was only introduced after the Luftwaffe swapped targets to London... basically the Luftwaffe had become predictable and raids on London gave Park time to pair up squadrons. His reasoning was not to give more firepower but to enable the controllers to look after more aircraft at any given time ...
 

Just Leo

pdf27 said:
will be replaced when Portal et al realise he's losing.
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At the time of the BoB, Portal was head of Bomber Command. He was the one sending out 12 Blenheims to attack German airfields, and one returns. He took over for Cyril Newall after the BoB when the political and personal shitstorm came to a head, and everyone who hated everyone took action. The more you look into it, the more everyone in the halls of power hated everyone else. Newall and Dowding went back to 1909, and both were shit upon at the close of 1940. It wasn't tactics. It was personal witch-hunting. I don't think Bentley Priory and the system of fighter control would have existed without Dowding, so there would be nothing to direct a big wing. The big wing could only be formed in time to intercept bombers returning from London, so what would be the use during the time of convoy escort and airfield raids?

History has determined who the ass-holes were, mostly, and it goes right to the top, WSC.
 

sonofpegasus

IIRC Parks did send pairs of squadrons to patrol the Dunkirk area during operation 'Dynamo'. the idea being to obtain localised air superiority for short times and thereby be in a position to inflict maximum damage on the raids that were intercepted. This was only practical because Park's had accepted the futility of trying to intercept every raid over the beaches. In the BoB 11 Group had to meet every attack on Groups area, hence no big wings. Allso while it is accepted that all Fighter Command Squadron claims of enemy aircraft destroyed and damaged were inflated by about double, those of the big wing were inflated by a factor of about four. Also despite being given the earliest possible warning 12 groups interception record with the big wing formation was abysmal and that alone justifies the decision by Parks to use single squadron or multiple squadron is sequential attacks. When Leigh Mallory gamed an actual BoB attack from August 1940 in 1941, using his big wing tactics his 11 group airfields were basically destroyed! IMHO Dowding's biggest mistake in the BoB was not slapping Mallory down strait away, sending him of to 13 group would have done for starters.
 

PMN1

IIRC, Stepehen Bungay's book on the BoB says there was a suggestion that Biggen Hill should be part of 11 Group rather than 12....this would have got Bader the action he was after.
 

Ian Hathaway

Plus Bader's 242 Squadron were officially based at Coltishall until October but flew out of Duxford so Bader could get in on the action. If Duxford had been part of 11 Group Bader would probably have had even less to do with the BoB than he actually did have OTL.
 

Carl Schwamberger

Hmm.. Just out of curiosity, who was responsible for the tactics used during the Rodeo & Circus operations in 1942? And during Operation Jubiliee? While not the "disaster" some people claim the air battles in those operations were not favorable to the RAF. Who was doing tactics for those ops?
 

Ian Hathaway

Carl Schwamberger said:
Hmm.. Just out of curiosity, who was responsible for the tactics used during the Rodeo & Circus operations in 1942? And during Operation Jubiliee? While not the "disaster" some people claim the air battles in those operations were not favorable to the RAF. Who was doing tactics for those ops?
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That was Sholto Douglas and Leigh Mallory. The first Circus was actually planned for December 1940 but postponed until 10th Jan 1941.
 

ivanotter

Sholto, sorry.

Actually I do agree with the sentiment that Dowding should have relegated Leigh-Malory to somewhere else (outer Hebrides or something as exotic).

A good leader should not have to put up with something close to insubordination.

Ivan
 

Landshark

PMN1 said:
IIRC, Stepehen Bungay's book on the BoB says there was a suggestion that Biggen Hill should be part of 11 Group rather than 12....this would have got Bader the action he was after.
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Not necessarily, I remember reading that one reason Bader wasn't assigned to 11 Group was that he couldn't get to his plane fast enough in a squadron scramble due to his tin legs.
 
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