Britannia's Fist: From Civil War to World War

Once the USN is on the run, in short order, the only blockade will be the British one meaning the blockade of the CSA is over. Her cotton is being sold, her bills being paid, everyone is eager to loan her money and arms are pouring in to the CSA.

This combined with only half the Union army being pulled away from the CSA effectively guarantees Lincon's defeat in 1864 and CSA victory, assuming it even takes that long.
 
eventually? Fairly quickly. When calculating the strength of the USN, you have to leave out the monitors and the other ironclads that could only operate on the rivers... and that doesn't leave all that much when compared to the RN. As for the blockade... it'll pretty much ruin the north... along with the sheer economic disaster it would have caused, it would have hampered military efforts too; the north had to import a lot of the stuff needed to make gunpowder; hell, for the first couple years of the war, they had to import guns as well. On the flipside of it, the CSA would suddenly be open to imports again, and would be able to get everything they need from overseas. Not to mention, the financing of the Federal government was somewhat reliant on customs fees, and the blockade would end all that....

Except history is littered with nations fighting long past economic disaster .. one example being the actual CSA in RL, but we can throw in Paraguay, Japan, Germany (twice), etc. We are past the first couple of years of the war and the US has fully mobilized its economy and has a lot of slack (historically its growth was tremendous during the war, and had enough slack to settle Colorado, build up an extensive infrastructure west of the Mississippi in Kansas, Minnasota and parts of Missouri). Plus this is going to be a ruinously expensive war for the British too (which was a real life concern for them at the time and probably why there was never a historical third war between the US and UK).

However, the blockade would be at least partially lifted for the CSA. They would be able to sell cotton in the UK. Possibly the British government would allow loans to the CSA government. But the strategic situation for the CSA is pretty grim in the fall of 1863. The Mississippi River is under complete Union control, northern Virginia has been thoroughly wrecked economically in the last two years, and the South has suffered tremendous losses and does not have the high quality army it used to have. Many of its best are dead or crippled (army, corps, division and brigade commanders), while attrition (and firing a lot of incompetents) has actually made the US Army stronger.

The best the CSA can hope for realistically is to hold off further attacks and hope the British can defeat the Yankees before attrition bleeds them out. Which is not good news for the British, as attrition politically is potentially very dangerous for the British government. Its the main reason they were willing to accept status quo ante bellum to end the War of 1812 and accepted defeat in the War of Independence to begin with.

Basically what we are saying is the British cannot win quickly. Not that they can't win possibly (perhaps probably). But the US is not in a hopeless situation. Particularly as fighting the Russians is going to require sizeable (perhaps larger in numbers) of British troops and ships as well. The French may or may not be of much help, as a the French have sizeable commitments in Mexico, don't care really who wins the Civil War as long as the US can't kick them out of Mexico, and I can't imagine the French providing serious assistance to help the British in Canada or in the Pacific. Possibly the French will help against the Russians.

Napoleon III was not the most competent or wisest leader the French ever had so its hard to say.

So if Lincoln can retain political support during the 1864 elections (a year away) the US will stay in the war. Based on the setup its pretty clear the British are the bad guys (in the eyes of Americans) in this situation, so a foreign war with the British is far more popular then the situation up to now. Plus the CSA is siding with a foreign aggressor, and lets be clear, there is no compelling reason of national survival or even necessity for the British to be fighting this war. So argueably, the CSA are now a bunch of traitors (even more then they were before), helping foreign enemies invade the US (which has happened in the book). Remember, the British start the war by fighting a naval battle practically in New York Harbor, then attack Portland without warning and shell the town.

As set up, I think historical American reactions to such attacks speak for themselves. Those kind of things unite Americans to the point where we will even let our Presidents invade countries that argueably had nothing to do with the attack on us to begin with.

The British cannot conquer the US, they can only inflict devastating (at times) blows. The US can also deliver some pretty severe blows to Canada (eventually.. remember in the book there is a sizeable army assembling in Detroit).

How long with the British be willing to fight a war like this when the political and economic costs are going to potentially outweigh the gain.

Such costs include making a permanent enemy of the US if the South is able to secede and eventually the US will be able to crush the South (especially a South which has lost Texas and Louisiana, which seems to be alluded to in the first book).

Some of the dissenters to this position are focused too much on hardware and numbers and not enough of how wars are fought and why they are lost and won. Its not how much force and power you have, its whether you can apply that force and power to force a decision.

I for one do not think that is clear cut in the least.
 
eventually? Fairly quickly. When calculating the strength of the USN, you have to leave out the monitors and the other ironclads that could only operate on the rivers... and that doesn't leave all that much when compared to the RN. As for the blockade... it'll pretty much ruin the north... along with the sheer economic disaster it would have caused, it would have hampered military efforts too; the north had to import a lot of the stuff needed to make gunpowder; hell, for the first couple years of the war, they had to import guns as well. On the flipside of it, the CSA would suddenly be open to imports again, and would be able to get everything they need from overseas. Not to mention, the financing of the Federal government was somewhat reliant on customs fees, and the blockade would end all that....

I think no one doubts that the USN is screwed, as is the USA in general. A blockade will definitely be established, and most U.S. trade is lost. American raiders can do some damage, but they'll be hunted down soon enough. The question is how close can Britain push the blockade (and thus whether it can choke off blockade runners) and whether it can launch major raids on the coastline, which is where the U.S. ironclads, coastal fortifications, etc, come in, and where most of the debate has been.

As for the CSA, the advantage of a late 1863 war is that the Confederacy is cut in half and the Union has full control of the Mississippi, something that won't change even with the blockade gone and most Union forces needing to be redirected elsewhere. The Confederacy is unlikely to recover much strength anytime soon.
 
I think that the army in Detroit will probably be sent to crush the copper heads and CS forces in Chicago
 
However, the blockade would be at least partially lifted for the CSA. They would be able to sell cotton in the UK. Possibly the British government would allow loans to the CSA government. But the strategic situation for the CSA is pretty grim in the fall of 1863. The Mississippi River is under complete Union control, northern Virginia has been thoroughly wrecked economically in the last two years, and the South has suffered tremendous losses and does not have the high quality army it used to have. Many of its best are dead or crippled (army, corps, division and brigade commanders), while attrition (and firing a lot of incompetents) has actually made the US Army stronger.

The best the CSA can hope for realistically is to hold off further attacks and hope the British can defeat the Yankees before attrition bleeds them out. Which is not good news for the British, as attrition politically is potentially very dangerous for the British government. Its the main reason they were willing to accept status quo ante bellum to end the War of 1812 and accepted defeat in the War of Independence to begin with.

I think the CSA manpower problem is the most important aspect being overlooked. After the devastating losses at Gettysburg, Lee was forced to remain on the defensive. With the Army of the Potomac being reduced to reinforce other theaters, Lee will surely attack. It's just in his nature to do so. I fully expect he will defeat Meade, but he will take casualties doing so, and he will press on in an attempt to take Washington and end the war. This is alluded to in the footnotes. I very much doubt Lee could take the city with a fresh army, even with naval support, let alone with one recently bloodied in a major battle. The Army of Northern Virginia will get mauled.
 
I'm constantly amused by the pro-British, I really don't want to term them fanatics because I don't think they are quite that bad, but I'm currently at the loss for the proper terminology, during these type of threads. Are the Union chances of defeating both Britain and the Confederacy good at the time of the Trent Affair...not at all. In late 1863, though, it is a whole different ball game. Why do think that in OTL the British government went well out of their way to ensure that the Laird Rams did not put to see for the Confederacy? Why do think the British government spurned Napoleon III's efforts at multinational arbitration? Why do you think the British government overlooked the Fenian Raids just after the War?

Read The Union in Peril by Howard Jones or The North, the South and the Powers, 1861-1865 by D.P. Cook and Lincoln and the Emperors by A. R Tyrner-Tyrnauer. All three give a good overview of the international diplomacy that surrounded the ACW. One of the main themes in all three books is that, while anti-slavery sentiments did shape Britain's actions during the conflict even more important to the British government was the fear of losing Canada (and by extension the war) and/or creating a long term enemy that held Canada a hostage while still having the strength to inflict a future defeat upon an independent Confederacy.

Yes, the British could have defeated the Union Navy and put a blockade upon the North, but just as in both the American Revolution and the War of 1812, this would not have guaranteed victory or saved Canada. Defeating the Union, even with confederate help, would have been a costly affair without the promise of certain victory. Denying these facts when many contemporaries of the conflict openly admitted such shows either ignorance or, dare I say, fanatacism.

Benjamin
 
I think that the army in Detroit will probably be sent to crush the copper heads and CS forces in Chicago

that won't take too long.. although there are sizeable numbers of released Rebel POWs and Copperhead sympathizers, they lack artillery, substantive supply and communications (and the ability to coordinate), not to mention having a problem with unity of command. In short, Union forces will crush them quickly. It does however delay a Union counterstrike into Canada, possibly until the spring of 1864. (the atrocious climate being just as big if not more of a factor in this case).
 

Dure

Banned
What the %£^& was that! Roll Alabama, Roll! is a sea shanty. I had a trawl(no nautical pun intended) around the YouTube versions of the song and the only one I can find with the right tune and metre is by what seems to be a bunch of drunken scousers . Most of the modern versions are either so slow or so quick you could not haul sheets to them.

There is another famous Alabama song written in Afrikaans by the Boer community on the Cape “Daar kom die Alibama”. I can’t find it on YouTube other than as a token in a rather awful cabaret medley.

‘We'll Fight for Uncle Sam’ is to the tune of whiskey in the jar. I am not sure it is contemporary with the war. As a counterpoint I would offer “Paddy’s Lamentation”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq4BPhyj3BU

Similarly you may also want to listen to ‘Kelly’s Irish Brigade’. The wild geese fight for many causes sometimes against each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfK_aSGZFwo

Listen to what America did these brave Irishmen in an ealier war and compare how the British kept faith with thier co-religionists in Quebec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4BGrNrkbMU

 
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67th Tigers

Banned
What I do question is that statement that the blockade will force the North to concede.

Then we go back to the old argument that the US will simply run out of powder (amongst other things), although the problem is less acute in 1863 than early 1862.

Hard to fight a war with nothing to shoot.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
It does however delay a Union counterstrike into Canada, possibly until the spring of 1864. (the atrocious climate being just as big if not more of a factor in this case).

Then they're in trouble.

The only thing the US really had going for them in 1861-2 was the Trent Crisis happened just as navigation up the St. Lawrence closed, and the British still dispatched 25,000 troops (3 infantry divisions, 2 cavalry brigades and their associated guns, train etc.) towards Montreal (not all arrived, the US conceded so quickly that troops were still loading onto ships), and prepared another 50,000 to follow-on as navigation reopened.

In 1863, it's summer, and navigation is open. Give the British 6 weeks and 80-100,000 regulars will be in Canada, with another 100,000 embodied militia.
 


‘We'll Fight for Uncle Sam’ is to the tune of whiskey in the jar. I am not sure it is contemporary with the war. As a counterpoint I would offer “Paddy’s Lamentation”.


Why would they mention McClellan so favorably if it was written after the war?
 

Dure

Banned
What I said was:

I am not sure it is contemporary with the war.

in part based on the the use of the phrases 'modern hero' and 'Irish Volunteers' which for me suggested it might have been written somewhere just before WWI.

However, I was wrong. It was written (the words) by a chap called H. De Marsan between 1861 and 1864. Good Irish name that.:D
 
Lets start talking about individuals.

Chamberlain, I'd imagine he's going to be promoted to Brigadier much sooner than June of '64, and will continue to climb the command ladder at an accelerated pace as long as he remains unwounded.

Chamberlain in action in the 1st Battle of Portland.
1stBattleofPortland.jpg


Wolsely, his plan was excellent and has been a near complete success in New York, while the Portland branch of the operation was foiled by factors not in his control. I expect that he will also be promoted at an accelerated rate compared to OTL.

I expect Meade to get a whipping when Lee comes North again, but I'm not sure who, if anyone will replace him. There's not really anyone available to do so. Grant, Sherman and Thomas will be busy with the situation in the west, Hooker's in NY, Sedgewick in Maine, and Reynolds is dead and Hancock still recovering from his wounds.

Hooker and Meagher I expect to get the redemption they are looking for and kick the British out of New York. Perhaps a heroic death for Meagher, rather than the drowning of '67.

Longstreets out west and Tsouras clearly admires him and despises Bragg, and rightly so. I think it would be interesting if after Grant defeats Bragg, Longstreet gets promoted to head of the Army of Tennessee.

Dahlgren was badly wounded, he might actually die.
 
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67th Tigers

Banned
Longstreets out west and Tsouras clearly admires him and despises Bragg, and rightly so. I think it would be interesting if after Grant defeats Bragg, Longstreet gets promoted to head of the Army of Tennessee.

It's interesting, but had you made such a statement about 20 years ago it would have provoked howls of derision for revisionism.
 
It's interesting, but had you made such a statement about 20 years ago it would have provoked howls of derision for revisionism.

As I'm sure you know Longstreet's reputation has undergone a massive resurgence in that time, and in my opinion a well deserved one.
 
Longstreet was bad-mouthed largely because he not only accepted position(s) under Republican administrations after the ACW but also, perhaps nearly as important, if Longstreet didn't bungle Gettysburg(Day Three) then Saint Robert of Lee was the only remaining choice to be blamed.
 
Longstreet was bad-mouthed largely because he not only accepted position(s) under Republican administrations after the ACW but also, perhaps nearly as important, if Longstreet didn't bungle Gettysburg(Day Three) then Saint Robert of Lee was the only remaining choice to be blamed.

I think his acceptance of reconstruction was by far the biggest factor in the smear campaign against him by his colleagues.
 

What exactly are you trying to prove with this reference? I've read the first three chapters and haven't learned anything I didn't already know. It seems statistical analysis shows that regiments that were defending and/or possessed the high ground were highly likely to win. Shocking.

I'm sure the author will delve more into the effects of morale and leadership in further chapters and how much impact that had on battle, but once again nothing in his introduction leads me to believe anything revolutionary is going to unveiled. Well trained high quality troops were better than low quality troops, amazing insight there.
 
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The concept of Longstreet as an army commander has always facinated me. A man truely ahead of his time in his tactical thinking. His columned infantry attack at Chickamunga was later used by the Germans as a tank formation. Not to mention his Defense-in-depth lines at Petersburg.

But having just read that book the north is still in major trouble right now. Chattanoga's besieged with some of it's relief having been sent north to fight in New York. New York is being invaded, Portsmith is under siege and Maine's about to be cut off. The whole Copperhead, freeing prisoners thing is a BIG stretch. Confederates in Chicago? Indanapolis?

The US Navy did win the battle at Charlestown(not to sure about the plausibility of that, but I'll roll with it) but they have huge problems looming for them in the next book.

France is on their way to liberate New Orleans, Lee is about to attack the Army of the Potomac(which had some of it's numbers siphoned off to head north, so they're roughly even), Rosecrans is besieged and may very well end up falling. Grant's going to have to decide if he wants to relieve Rosecrans or reinforce New Orleans, can't see him being able to do both. Even if Grant does relieve Rosecrans, the battle of Chatanoga may very well go differently since Hooker's Corps aren't there. Plus they're going to have to send a large number of men to stop all these prisoner riots and the forces they have against the British may or may not be enough. Britain does face some logistical problems in the region granted.

The Royal Navy may have been beaten at Charlestown, but it's not out and the blockade can't be maintained for too much longer.

On the note, anyone know when the sequel's coming out?
 
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