Amerindian Middle Ages

[Chiropteroid]

I have been thinking about this timeline for a while. Anyways, the idea is that during the arrival of the Europeans to the Americas, In the Northern part the Native Americans had established a society similar to the middle ages, with castles, advanced farming and other.

Before anyone of you asks, I was thinking about the High Middle Ages, around 12th-13th century level technology, mail/lamellar armor over plate, and crossbows and siege engines but no gunpowder, for starters. Also the castles are stone, but are built to defend against catapults and rams instead of cannons.

Also I would like to note that this is NOT about creating a native american society, which defeats the Europeans. This is about the study of what kind of middle ages would have developed in North America, what would be required for such development and what happened to it, when the europeans arrived.

Here is a list of thing to think about in this thread

Requirements: What is needed for the Amerindians to develop to feudalism? In Europe the Middle Ages was built on the remains of the Roman empire. Also are horses a requirement or is there perhaps an advanced infantry-based warrior class. Also when must the timeline begin?

Features: What differences or similarities the American Middle Ages has to the European and Asian Equivalents? Both had a caste system of sorts, where the warrior class (knights, rajputs, samurai etc) were generally the highest. But in Europe a merchant was considered to be above a farmer, while in Asia it was vice versa. Are there for example several religions like in Asia, or one like in Europe? Also a good thing to consider is that what Amerindian tribes exist in this TL North America, and what are they (are they city-states, countries or empires)?

End of Amerindian Middle Ages: Is it when the Europeans arrive or will it end through natural cultural evolution? Also what are the effects of the Europeans? The effect of diseases most likely stays intact, but what about the expansion? Also how do the Amerindians affect the Europeans?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Cahokia always struck me as the basis for such an evolution but IIRC it over-expanded and starved itself

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Falecius]

Features: What differences or similarities the American Middle Ages has to the European and Asian Equivalents? Both had a caste system of sorts, where the warrior class (knights, rajputs, samurai etc) were generally the highest. But in Europe a merchant was considered to be above a farmer, while in Asia it was vice versa. Are there for example several religions like in Asia, or one like in Europe? Also a good thing to consider is that what Amerindian tribes exist in this TL North America, and what are they (are they city-states, countries or empires)?

End of Amerindian Middle Ages: Is it when the Europeans arrive or will it end through natural cultural evolution? Also what are the effects of the Europeans? The effect of diseases most likely stays intact, but what about the expansion? Also how do the Amerindians affect the Europeans?

In Muslim areas merchants enjoyed very high status, far more so than in Europe indeed.

 

[Chiropteroid]

Grey Wolf: Thanks for the contribution. Although I have a feeling that the ATL Cahokia (or whatever the city's real name is) is a more advanced society, at least iron instead of copper.

Falecius: With Asia I was mostly referring to China and Japan, but I admit it, in general a merchant was higher

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

All of North America (both the modern USA/Canada area and Mesoamerica) already had a prestigious, high-ranking warrior class in most nations and tribes. They are typically referred to as warrior societies, and functioned like a fraternity of warriors who'd typically fight together. I guess they're like the knight orders in Europe, but less international in most cases. And they tended to be less important in more egalitarian societies like the northern tribes, but they were still there and considered to be very honorable, like the Kit Foxes or Dog Soldiers.

Also, I don't know about the northern areas, but in Mesoamerican society traders were held in very high regard, much higher than Europe at least. Among the Aztecs they had almost as many rights as nobles and among the Maya the nobles themselves were often traders. In all Mesoamerican societies trading was one of the two ways a commoner could elevate themselves to a higher class, the other way being the path of the warrior. Given how similar the Mississippians seem to have been to Mesoamerican culture it may have been the same up north.

Anyways, to answer the OP's main question, I don't think having such a close parallel to the European Middle Ages in America is possible at all. At least not without changing Native-American cultures into something completely unrecognizable, which I always find annoying. And even then it's not all that likely. I don't think iron was exactly easy to make in the Americas, and having heavy armor, castles, etc exactly like medieval Europe seems ASB.

 

[MNP]

Hmm iron. The US seems to have had plenty of iron in its formative years. Is it not extractable with pre-1800s technology or something?

 

[Chiropteroid]

snip

These are all very good points. And yes, I didn't want any ASBs to this TL either. Although Amerindians are in general less nomadic than in OTL; more cities and villages.

Well, considering that castles and iron based armor is indeed not that likely, I came up with this:

Snake soldier

Snake soldier would be the closest equivalent Amerindians have for a knight or a samurai. The name comes from the lamellar armor worn by the soldier, which resembles snake's scales. Because there isn't much iron, the scales are usually made of leather or horn and held together by thread. This gives the soldier a decent protection, yet doesn't hinder his movement too much. Snake soldier also uses a shield, usually carved of wood, though leather is also used. Often a helmet, also made of wood, is used. A typical snake soldier weapon is a thrusting spear or an axe (and/or perhaps a some kind of sword)

The purpose of a snake soldier is to advance towards the enemy. This is a rather unorthodox tactic compared to the more hit and run tactics of the OTL indians, but it fits to the theme of more advanced warfare.

So, what do you think?

 

[archaeogeek]

I would note that merchants in Europe varied in status; overland trade and maritime trade carried different privileges, and maritime trade was, in France and Spain, one of the traditional activities of the aristocracy (as it was in Archaic Greece, Rome, etc).

 

[NKVD]

I doubt Native Americans could have a civilization truly analogous to the European Middle Ages. Not only were their agricultural practices completely different -- and probably better than those of Europeans of the time, I might add -- but they lacked the same basic worldview as Europeans. Civilizations just don't all progress the same way.

And, they don't really need gunpowder. Their bow and arrow was already superior to the Fifteenth Century European gun.

 

[NothingNow]

These are all very good points. And yes, I didn't want any ASBs to this TL either. Although Amerindians are in general less nomadic than in OTL; more cities and villages.

So, what do you think?

Do more research on a lot of this stuff, and for the love of god, don't group everyone in one big pile.

That said, the Armor is a good idea, and Bone scale Armor is pretty good at taking a hit from an Arrow.

It'd make sense for a larger society to have more "Traditional" tactics and heavy infantry in battle, but not for a smaller-scale society, where frankly, that armor of yours is comparatively quite expensive, and where Light Infantry Raiding tactics predominated. Maybe have such armor constitute part of the equipment of the Elites.

 

[archaeogeek]

And, they don't really need gunpowder. Their bow and arrow was already superior to the Fifteenth Century European gun.

Anything is superior to a 15th century gun.

 

[MNP]

In regards to nomadism, I'd like to point out that after the introduction of the horse to western NA, nomadism actually increased and settled farming declined among the indigenous population.

Anything is superior to a 15th century gun.

According to Deadliest Warrior, AD 1 Chinese fire arrows are inferior.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Anything is superior to a 15th century gun.

Except for a 15th century crossbow. Aztecs had less respect for that than they did for the arquebus.

Anyways, as I said they already had analogues to knights or samurai. Warrior societies (like the Sioux Dog Soldiers, Cheyenne Kit Foxes, or Aztec Eagle Warriors to name a few examples) served that function. All were decently armed and extensively trained and had the same amount of high regard among their society in addition to moral codes and whatnot that the samurai and knights did.

 

[Chiropteroid]

First of all thank you all for the ideas and notes, I'll put them to good use.

Now I'll give one possible society in this TL, more precisely the one from the Great Plains:

A some kind of raiding empire, similar to huns and mongols, originates from here. It consists of the Lakota, Hidatsa, Crow and other people, which have been subjugated and ruled by one chief. I'm not yet sure which people would have founded the Empire, but I was thinking about the Lakota. They were historially reliant on bisons, so perhaps a some kind of thinning of the herds forced them to start raiding.

As for the warfare, they use archers and light infantry for their raiding purposes. Horses may come in later, or if raiding empires are statistically reliant on them, the empire was founded after the arrival of the Europeans

As always, keep replying.

 

[archaeogeek]

First of all thank you all for the ideas and notes, I'll put them to good use.

Now I'll give one possible society in this TL, more precisely the one from the Great Plains:

A some kind of raiding empire, similar to huns and mongols, originates from here. It consists of the Lakota, Hidatsa, Crow and other people, which have been subjugated and ruled by one chief. I'm not yet sure which people would have founded the Empire, but I was thinking about the Lakota. They were historially reliant on bisons, so perhaps a some kind of thinning of the herds forced them to start raiding.

As for the warfare, they use archers and light infantry for their raiding purposes. Horses may come in later, or if raiding empires are statistically reliant on them, the empire was founded after the arrival of the Europeans

As always, keep replying.

That could possibly work. The Mesoamericans largely thought of the peoples of the great basin in the same way eurasian civilizations thought of the peoples of the steppes, so the sioux-as-huns is pretty much OTL in the eyes of the settled peoples of the region.

In that view, the Nahuatl are basically akin to the timurids founding the mughal empire.

 

[MNP]

First of all thank you all for the ideas and notes, I'll put them to good use.

Now I'll give one possible society in this TL, more precisely the one from the Great Plains:

A some kind of raiding empire, similar to huns and mongols, originates from here. It consists of the Lakota, Hidatsa, Crow and other people, which have been subjugated and ruled by one chief. I'm not yet sure which people would have founded the Empire, but I was thinking about the Lakota. They were historially reliant on bisons, so perhaps a some kind of thinning of the herds forced them to start raiding.

As for the warfare, they use archers and light infantry for their raiding purposes. Horses may come in later, or if raiding empires are statistically reliant on them, the empire was founded after the arrival of the Europeans

As always, keep replying.

Considering the plains Indians went to horse archers and lancers 100 years after being introduced to the horse, this seems eminently possible.

 

[Swan Station]

A some kind of raiding empire, similar to huns and mongols, originates from here. It consists of the Lakota, Hidatsa, Crow and other people, which have been subjugated and ruled by one chief. I'm not yet sure which people would have founded the Empire, but I was thinking about the Lakota. They were historially reliant on bisons, so perhaps a some kind of thinning of the herds forced them to start raiding.

The Lakota didn't move to the Great Plains until after the Europeans started pushing everyone westward, before that they were living around Northern Minnesota.

 

[archaeogeek]

The Lakota didn't move to the Great Plains until after the Europeans started pushing everyone westward, before that they were living around Northern Minnesota.

Right, I forgot the migrations.

Uto-Aztecan peoples would be more likely, along with the Chumash.
Which I already mentioned, but swap Ute and Pueblo for Sioux

 

[tallwingedgoat]

There's a HUGE technological and social gap between Middle Ages Europe and the Americas. How are you going to have the Middle Ages without even fishing hooks and the wheel? Maybe in Mexico or Peru where a tradition of urbanization existed, but North American plains was the backwaters of the New World, almost as peripheral as Patagonia.

 

[archaeogeek]

There's a HUGE technological and social gap between Middle Ages Europe and the Americas. How are you going to have the Middle Ages without even fishing hooks and the wheel? Maybe in Mexico or Peru where a tradition of urbanization existed, but North American plains was the backwaters of the New World, almost as peripheral as Patagonia.

Fishing hooks?
The Inuit had some pretty sophisticated harpoons.