Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

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Driftless

Donor
1946 plans called for new tank destroyers similar to Hellcat, but with more powerful armament at 25 and 32 tons.

A late '40s Hellcat with a 90mm? Was this a open topped, lighter-weight speedster like the original, or a clean(er) sheet design?

It may not be completely accurate, but I always compared the M-18 Hellcats to Battlecruisers, in the sense of the proverbial eggshells armed with hammers. Maybe not an apt comparison, as the M-18s had a pretty consistently good record for performance IIRC, but was that due to how they were used?
 

Petike

Kicked
Romfell V2.0 Armoured Car Update: (@Petike)

The finished product at last with some details from Petike's TL:

The Zemplín Federation's military (1918 - mid-to-late 1940s) - Part 3: Military inventories
A deep dive into the military inventories and related inventory terminology of the Zemplín Federation's military.​
Armoured cars: Since the ATL version of the Austro-Hungarian Romfell armoured car had been produced in plentiful numbers (approaching 120 units), the governments of the Šariš Free State, Zemplín Federation and Kingdom of Galizia commandeered as many leftover units as possible after the collapse of the eastern front late in WWI.​
Modifications and add-ons
The governments soon realized that the vanilla version of the vehicle wouldn't be all that suitable for the needs of their interwar militaries. Furthermore, while a good basic design, the model had several inherent flaws that were in dire need of being addressed by technical tweaking and updating. Maintaining and reproducing some of the more intricate parts and portions of the vehicles would prove too pricy, especially for the strapped-for-cash Šariš and Zemplín militaries. Hence why all of the three countries decided to resort to extensive modifications of all surviving Romfell hulls.​
Upgrades of the Romfell common in all three states included:​
- Replacement of the original engines for more powerful ones.​
- The hull plating was, where possible, slightly thickened.​
- The once overly narrow wheels were replaced with far broader, thicker, buffer ones.​
- The roof of the turret, originally equipped with a simple and rather unergonomic hatch, was replaced by a static roof that could be raised and lowered by a handcrank-operated mechanism from inside the turret.​
- Several variants of the car were created in each country. Every variant was distinctive either by its extended number of wheels, modified hull or by new armaments.​
Resulting variants
The three Romfell that were in use among the armoured units of the ZF's armed forces since the 1920s, up until the 1940s were the following:​
1.) Hače ("Foal") armoured scout car - This variant is the closest to the original Romfell. It is a simple armoured scout car with a single machine gun and a crew consisting of only a driver and gunner. The hind parts of the vehicle were slightly enlarged to allow for a smaller, inexpensive on-board radio. (Claymore's note: Not reproduced as a model)​
2.) Hačur ("Stallion") anti-tank armoured car - The most ambitious and creative of the variants, but also the one that was produced the least. It was derived from an experimental prototype, a six-wheeled expansion of the original Romfell. Since the Romfell - vanilla as well as modified - is overall a fairly light armoured car and has a rather small turret, the ZF armed forces made a decision to equip it with heavy anti-tank rifles instead of actual light cannons. While the caliber of these improvised "rifle-cannons" is rather low and they can't pack as much of a punch as a real cannon, they are still adequate for supporting infantry and armoured cars with machine guns against more lightly armoured vehicles (e.g. tankettes, light tanks). The space offered by the expanded hind quarters of the variant are used primarily for housing the on-board radio, a small storage of additional ammo for the AT rifle and the bench of the ammo loader (who also doubles as a radio operator when he's not handing AT bullets to the gunner). The ammo can be loaded into the car through a small single door in the back. This door is also used as an emergency escape hatch for the gunner, in case he doesn't make it to the front doors of the car.​
3. Kobula ("Mare") light APC / assault armoured car - This variant came into being as a simpler offshoot of the Stallion six-wheeler. There are only two real differences between the duo: The turret sports a machine gun instead of an anti-tank rifle. Instead of a small storage for AT rifle ammo, the reinforced hind quarters of the car have small benches, able to accommodate up to 4 infantrymen. Said infantrymen can enter through two doors at the back of the car. The relative spaciousness of the hind quarters also permits the car to carry a bigger and more powerful on-board radio. This means that the car can also be used as an improvised command vehicle, with one or two of the soldiers replaced by a platoon commander and his aide, both sitting near the radio.​
Reasons behind the turret hatch modification
I'll just note that there is no longer a top hatch on the turret. The entire roof is a solid single piece but can be lifted a bit on small rack rails inside the turret, powered by a hand crank. The main reason why they redesigned the original roof was to avoid someone sneaking up on the car, climbing on the turret, opening the hatch and chucking in a hand grenade. The crew of the modified car is in about the same amount of potential danger as the tankette and light tank crews, so having a top hatch wouldn't add much to the survivability. Of course, losing a top hatch makes an escape a bit more involved, but the modified car was never meant to fight tanks head on.​
Tactical use of the modified Romfell
The Romfell is not intended to directly battle armour larger than light tanks, and certainly not against whole groups of enemy armour. With the improved wheels and more powerful engine, the car is intended for hit-and-run tactics, rather than direct confrontations with a larger armoured force or infantry force. Most of the preferred tactics focus on ambushes, especially in rural areas with dirt roads among fields, meadows and the edges of forests. Hiding behind foliage or hedgerows is part of commencing ambushes. The cars coordinate with jaegers and with other light armoured vehicles (sometimes even with mounted troops) to harass the enemy in ambush-advantageous locations. The AT variant (and AT rifle infantry) attempt to harass enemy light armoured vehicles and motor vehicles, while the MG variants (and machine gunners and riflemen) try to attack enemy infantry and mounted troops. The goal isn't an orderly thinning-down of the ranks, but an effort to cause as much confusion, chaos and panic in the invaders as possible, possibly even induce a rout.​
The Stallion model depicts vehicle number III of the Heavy AT Company of the Zemplín Federation's Armoured Car Battalion whilst the Mare represents vehicle number III of the battalion's Headquarters Company. The model is adapted from a couple of excellent CSM Romfell Panzerwagen models and the ubiquitous plastic card.

Stallion
View attachment 866979

View attachment 866980

View attachment 866981

Mare
View attachment 866982

View attachment 866983

View attachment 866984
Very well done indeed. :)

Thank you. :cool:
 
Romfell V2.0 Armoured Car Update: (@Petike)

The finished product at last with some details from Petike's TL:

The Zemplín Federation's military (1918 - mid-to-late 1940s) - Part 3: Military inventories
A deep dive into the military inventories and related inventory terminology of the Zemplín Federation's military.​
Armoured cars: Since the ATL version of the Austro-Hungarian Romfell armoured car had been produced in plentiful numbers (approaching 120 units), the governments of the Šariš Free State, Zemplín Federation and Kingdom of Galizia commandeered as many leftover units as possible after the collapse of the eastern front late in WWI.​
Modifications and add-ons
The governments soon realized that the vanilla version of the vehicle wouldn't be all that suitable for the needs of their interwar militaries. Furthermore, while a good basic design, the model had several inherent flaws that were in dire need of being addressed by technical tweaking and updating. Maintaining and reproducing some of the more intricate parts and portions of the vehicles would prove too pricy, especially for the strapped-for-cash Šariš and Zemplín militaries. Hence why all of the three countries decided to resort to extensive modifications of all surviving Romfell hulls.​
Upgrades of the Romfell common in all three states included:​
- Replacement of the original engines for more powerful ones.​
- The hull plating was, where possible, slightly thickened.​
- The once overly narrow wheels were replaced with far broader, thicker, buffer ones.​
- The roof of the turret, originally equipped with a simple and rather unergonomic hatch, was replaced by a static roof that could be raised and lowered by a handcrank-operated mechanism from inside the turret.​
- Several variants of the car were created in each country. Every variant was distinctive either by its extended number of wheels, modified hull or by new armaments.​
Resulting variants
The three Romfell that were in use among the armoured units of the ZF's armed forces since the 1920s, up until the 1940s were the following:​
1.) Hače ("Foal") armoured scout car - This variant is the closest to the original Romfell. It is a simple armoured scout car with a single machine gun and a crew consisting of only a driver and gunner. The hind parts of the vehicle were slightly enlarged to allow for a smaller, inexpensive on-board radio. (Claymore's note: Not reproduced as a model)​
2.) Hačur ("Stallion") anti-tank armoured car - The most ambitious and creative of the variants, but also the one that was produced the least. It was derived from an experimental prototype, a six-wheeled expansion of the original Romfell. Since the Romfell - vanilla as well as modified - is overall a fairly light armoured car and has a rather small turret, the ZF armed forces made a decision to equip it with heavy anti-tank rifles instead of actual light cannons. While the caliber of these improvised "rifle-cannons" is rather low and they can't pack as much of a punch as a real cannon, they are still adequate for supporting infantry and armoured cars with machine guns against more lightly armoured vehicles (e.g. tankettes, light tanks). The space offered by the expanded hind quarters of the variant are used primarily for housing the on-board radio, a small storage of additional ammo for the AT rifle and the bench of the ammo loader (who also doubles as a radio operator when he's not handing AT bullets to the gunner). The ammo can be loaded into the car through a small single door in the back. This door is also used as an emergency escape hatch for the gunner, in case he doesn't make it to the front doors of the car.​
3. Kobula ("Mare") light APC / assault armoured car - This variant came into being as a simpler offshoot of the Stallion six-wheeler. There are only two real differences between the duo: The turret sports a machine gun instead of an anti-tank rifle. Instead of a small storage for AT rifle ammo, the reinforced hind quarters of the car have small benches, able to accommodate up to 4 infantrymen. Said infantrymen can enter through two doors at the back of the car. The relative spaciousness of the hind quarters also permits the car to carry a bigger and more powerful on-board radio. This means that the car can also be used as an improvised command vehicle, with one or two of the soldiers replaced by a platoon commander and his aide, both sitting near the radio.​
Reasons behind the turret hatch modification
I'll just note that there is no longer a top hatch on the turret. The entire roof is a solid single piece but can be lifted a bit on small rack rails inside the turret, powered by a hand crank. The main reason why they redesigned the original roof was to avoid someone sneaking up on the car, climbing on the turret, opening the hatch and chucking in a hand grenade. The crew of the modified car is in about the same amount of potential danger as the tankette and light tank crews, so having a top hatch wouldn't add much to the survivability. Of course, losing a top hatch makes an escape a bit more involved, but the modified car was never meant to fight tanks head on.​
Tactical use of the modified Romfell
The Romfell is not intended to directly battle armour larger than light tanks, and certainly not against whole groups of enemy armour. With the improved wheels and more powerful engine, the car is intended for hit-and-run tactics, rather than direct confrontations with a larger armoured force or infantry force. Most of the preferred tactics focus on ambushes, especially in rural areas with dirt roads among fields, meadows and the edges of forests. Hiding behind foliage or hedgerows is part of commencing ambushes. The cars coordinate with jaegers and with other light armoured vehicles (sometimes even with mounted troops) to harass the enemy in ambush-advantageous locations. The AT variant (and AT rifle infantry) attempt to harass enemy light armoured vehicles and motor vehicles, while the MG variants (and machine gunners and riflemen) try to attack enemy infantry and mounted troops. The goal isn't an orderly thinning-down of the ranks, but an effort to cause as much confusion, chaos and panic in the invaders as possible, possibly even induce a rout.​
The Stallion model depicts vehicle number III of the Heavy AT Company of the Zemplín Federation's Armoured Car Battalion whilst the Mare represents vehicle number III of the battalion's Headquarters Company. The model is adapted from a couple of excellent CSM Romfell Panzerwagen models and the ubiquitous plastic card.

Stallion
View attachment 866979

View attachment 866980

View attachment 866981

Mare
View attachment 866982

View attachment 866983

View attachment 866984
Very cool.
 
A late '40s Hellcat with a 90mm? Was this a open topped, lighter-weight speedster like the original, or a clean(er) sheet design?

It may not be completely accurate, but I always compared the M-18 Hellcats to Battlecruisers, in the sense of the proverbial eggshells armed with hammers. Maybe not an apt comparison, as the M-18s had a pretty consistently good record for performance IIRC, but was that due to how they were used?
They said "turret overhead cover" while it was "turret top" for the normal tanks so I think they would do it the same way as late war TDs with open top turrets fitted with an overhead cover you can remove as needed.

Clean sheet design, in fact while the TDs would share as many parts as possible with the conventional tanks, they would not directly use their hulls so they can be fully optimized for their roles.
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The TDs basically sacrifice armor relative to their conventional counterparts in exchange for greater mobility and a gun of the power corresponding to the next class ( 25 ton light TD has same power as 45 ton medium tank, 32 ton medium TD same as the lower bound of the 75 ton heavy tank, 50 ton heavy TD same as the upper bound of the heavy).


Worth noting that all postwar tanks and TDs specified here must use dual axis stabilization, rangefinders and there was heavy preference for diesel or multifuel powerplants, with ideal engines having 500-550, 1000-1050, and 1500-1550hp for light, medium and heavy tanks assuming a power to weight ratio of 20 for all of them. A far cry from the actual postwar situation where gasoline was used for another 15 years and the best engine was stuck at 810-825 hp, and stabilization was absent. The 1500hp category is what motivated the request for a 1000-1400hp gas turbine program in 1946 to be installed in a T29 heavy tank. Which never became a prototype for some reason.
 

Driftless

Donor
It would be an interesting AH analysis to see how those follow-on Hellcat TDs would have performed in Korea (not ideal tank country). Following the Korea experience, would the US retain those TDs and that philosphy into the 60s, where they may have been very useful in Viet Nam, or would the US have soured on the TD/light tank lineup and peddled them abroad? Would the Israeli's have been interested, for example? Or the Iranians - who were still US friendly at that point?
 
It would be an interesting AH analysis to see how those follow-on Hellcat TDs would have performed in Korea (not ideal tank country). Following the Korea experience, would the US retain those TDs and that philosphy into the 60s, where they may have been very useful in Viet Nam, or would the US have soured on the TD/light tank lineup and peddled them abroad? Would the Israeli's have been interested, for example? Or the Iranians - who were still US friendly at that point?
Afaik Korea was an infantry fight with some tank support. In many cases tanks worked as mobile artillery. So not the ideal terrain to test tank warfare post WWII. For that I'd go to the middle east.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
They said "turret overhead cover" while it was "turret top" for the normal tanks so I think they would do it the same way as late war TDs with open top turrets fitted with an overhead cover you can remove as needed.

Clean sheet design, in fact while the TDs would share as many parts as possible with the conventional tanks, they would not directly use their hulls so they can be fully optimized for their roles.

The TDs basically sacrifice armor relative to their conventional counterparts in exchange for greater mobility and a gun of the power corresponding to the next class ( 25 ton light TD has same power as 45 ton medium tank, 32 ton medium TD same as the lower bound of the 75 ton heavy tank, 50 ton heavy TD same as the upper bound of the heavy).


Worth noting that all postwar tanks and TDs specified here must use dual axis stabilization, rangefinders and there was heavy preference for diesel or multifuel powerplants, with ideal engines having 500-550, 1000-1050, and 1500-1550hp for light, medium and heavy tanks assuming a power to weight ratio of 20 for all of them. A far cry from the actual postwar situation where gasoline was used for another 15 years and the best engine was stuck at 810-825 hp, and stabilization was absent. The 1500hp category is what motivated the request for a 1000-1400hp gas turbine program in 1946 to be installed in a T29 heavy tank. Which never became a prototype for some reason.
Thanks for another, very informative, post.
 
This is inspired by a story of a country who was Isekai'd or ASB out of Earth and into a world in the post-WW1/Inter-War timeline thus they while having the modern weapons and industry to create the Small Arms, Small Artillery, APCs, Armored Cars and Combat equipment like webbing, helmets and bullet proof vests, they had to quickly jump start their tank production mostly on the fact that they never had to make a Tank and IFV very quickly....

Thus using already known designs in their arsenal and historical vehicles, from the combine might of the Military Logistics and Maintenance and the Ordnance-Engineering-Automotive-Industry, they have created a tank so familiar in history some called it a copy. Using the French made 75 SA 50 75 mm high-velocity rifled gun and Belgian made Cockerill Mk3 M-A1 90mm gun and Cockerill 105 mm high-pressure rifled gun for their main armament, it was the most heavily armed and armored tank for it's time.

They called it the Medium Weight, Main Battle Tank, or it's commonly referred by it's nickname the Rhino series, the later hull, track and suspension design will be used on the new locally made and built Self-Propelled Guns, rudimentary SPAAGs mostly for export, and the reversed engineered Command vehicles, Ambulances and APCs from old British CVRT vehicles still in stock.
So continuing from here, here's the continuation of the Main Battle Tank Project of the country who was Isekai'd or ASB out of Earth and into a world in the post-WW1/Inter-War timeline, but this time they have reach the WW2 timeline:

Heavy Weight  Main Battle Tank.png


They called it the Heavy Weight, Main Battle Tank, or it's commonly referred by it's nickname the Elephant series, the using a modified and reversed engineered hulls of the M60 MBT from old stocks of M60 MBTs, turrets inspired by the Leopard 1A1, and using the Belgian made Cockerill Mk3 M-A1 90mm gun, Cockerill 105 mm high-pressure rifled gun and the Cockerill XC-8-120 120mm high-pressure smoothbore gun, for their main armament, it was the most heavily armed and armored tank for it's time, it also has a Combat Engineering variant.

Sadly there's no drawings of the Cockerill XC-8-120 120mm high-pressure smoothbore gun anywhere, thus you all have to make do with the 90mm and 105mm versions...
 
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It would be an interesting AH analysis to see how those follow-on Hellcat TDs would have performed in Korea (not ideal tank country). Following the Korea experience, would the US retain those TDs and that philosphy into the 60s, where they may have been very useful in Viet Nam, or would the US have soured on the TD/light tank lineup and peddled them abroad? Would the Israeli's have been interested, for example? Or the Iranians - who were still US friendly at that point?
Well, the TDs were completely deleted from the program in 1948-49 in favor of just making more and better medium and heavy tanks.
 
It may not be completely accurate, but I always compared the M-18 Hellcats to Battlecruisers, in the sense of the proverbial eggshells armed with hammers. Maybe not an apt comparison, as the M-18s had a pretty consistently good record for performance IIRC, but was that due to how they were used?

It's actually a very good comparison and they're good reputation is partly due to them not being misused to the extent that battlecruisers were.
 
It's actually a very good comparison and they're good reputation is partly due to them not being misused to the extent that battlecruisers were.
Per doctrine they were actually substantially more misused than battlecruisers were. They were supposed to be held in reserve to rapidly counter large scale armored thrusts ala the Battle of the Bulge, that did not happen and they were parceled out to support infantry divisions as assault guns/mobile artillery

By contrast the Battlecruisers in WWI were used exactly as they were meant to be, to hunt down armored cruisers and serve as heavy scouts. Battlecruiser on battlecruiser fights simply happen to be very nasty, leading to an undeserved bad reputation
 
Per doctrine they were actually substantially more misused than battlecruisers were. They were supposed to be held in reserve to rapidly counter large scale armored thrusts ala the Battle of the Bulge, that did not happen and they were parceled out to support infantry divisions as assault guns/mobile artillery

By contrast the Battlecruisers in WWI were used exactly as they were meant to be, to hunt down armored cruisers and serve as heavy scouts. Battlecruiser on battlecruiser fights simply happen to be very nasty, leading to an undeserved bad reputation
Because the Germans didn't have that many tanks left by the time the M18 showed up in large numbers and much of it was stuck on the Eastern Front trying to hold off the Soviets.
 
So the tank designs inspired by a story of a country who was Isekai'd or ASB out of Earth and into a world in the post-WW1/Inter-War timeline is finally finished.

The country while having the modern weapons and industry to create the Small Arms, Small Artillery, APCs, Armored Cars and Combat equipment like webbing, helmets and bulletproof vests, did not have any industry on making Tanks and IFVs as they rely on foreign sales and licensing deals on those they already have in service, thus they had to quickly jump start their tank production mostly on the fact that they never had to make a Tank and IFV very quickly....

Thus using already known designs in their arsenal, from the combine might of the Military Logistics and Maintenance and the Ordnance-Engineering-Automotive-Industry, they have created a series of tank Light, Medium and Heavy, but the first was a series of Light tanks made by the Ordnance-Engineering-Automotive-Industry based on the CVR(T) Scorpion and Scimitars they had in service, armed with the 76mm L23A1 gun or 90mm Cockerill Mk3 M-A1 low-pressure gun, it was the most heavily armed tank when it came out in the 1920s.

Light Weight  Armored Fighting Vehicle-Light Tank.png


As the second world war grew closer, the need for heavy and medium tanks grew and everyone prioritized medium tanks as they would be the most useful in combat for the early days of the Second World War, and thus using already known designs in their arsenal and historical vehicles, from the combine might of the Military Logistics and Maintenance and the Ordnance-Engineering-Automotive-Industry, they have created a tank so familiar in history some called it a copy, and using the French made 75 SA 50 75 mm high-velocity rifled gun and Belgian made Cockerill Mk3 M-A1 90mm gun low-pressure and Cockerill 105 mm high-pressure rifled gun for their main armament, it was the most heavily armed and armored tank for it's time, it came with two Turret designs, a cast turret and a welded turret.

They called it the Medium Weight, Main Battle Tank, or it's commonly referred by it's nickname the Rhino series, the later hull, track and suspension design will be used on the new locally made and built Self-Propelled Guns, rudimentary SPAAGs mostly for export, and the reversed engineered Command vehicles, Ambulances and APCs from old British CVRT vehicles still in stock.

Medium Weight  Main Battle Tank.png


When the Second World War is in full swing, the need for the Heavy Tank is evident by the sudden appearance of 88mm and 90mm tank guns on Heavy armored tank platforms, thus using a modified and reversed engineered hulls of the M60 MBT from old stocks of M60 MBTs, turrets inspired by the Leopard 1A1/A5 from old stocks of Leopard 1A1s and A5s, and using the Belgian made Cockerill Mk3 M-A1 90mm gun, Cockerill 105 mm high-pressure rifled gun and the Cockerill XC-8-120 120mm high-pressure smoothbore gun, for their main armament, it was the most heavily armed and armored tank for it's time, it also has a Combat Engineering variant, it came with two Turret designs, a cast turret and a welded turret. (Sadly there's no drawings of the Cockerill XC-8-120 120mm high-pressure smoothbore gun anywhere, thus you all have to make do with the 90mm and 105mm versions).

Heavy Weight  Main Battle Tank.png


They called it the Heavy Weight, Main Battle Tank, or it's commonly referred by it's nickname the Elephant series, it became a terror amongst enemy troops as the heavy tank, more heavily armored while not weighing as much as the current era of Heavy Tanks (Thank you modern metallurgy and modern armor composites) has caused it to be the most common heavy tank in service in the allied armies.
 
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