Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

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The problem is that when you start altering any turret size to fit your drawing there are always consequences. Shortening the length will over emphasise the height but more importantly reduce the internal volume for the gun recoil - after all there is a good reason why turrets are the size they are. For that very reason, my own rule is always to keep every part of an AH design in scale with every other part. Once you start mixing and matching scales things rapidly become unrealistic - a Panzer II hull with a shrunken Tiger II turret is just never going to work!

In other words, if the turret is too big, it’s too big and you will need to look for something else. Size mismatches and what is or is not possible often become more obvious when you include a front view perspective.
Is your comment based on the different sizes of the drawn vehicles or that a Tiger II shaped turret just wouldn't work with a Panther hull?
PS: What I mean is that the design remains the same but that the turret would have been build to fit on a Panther.
 
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Is your comment based on the different sizes of the drawn vehicles or that a Tiger II shaped turret just wouldn't work with a Panther hull?
My comment/observation is really a generalisation for any and all AH AFV design work - when you start rescaling OTL turrets and hulls just so that they match up but ignore the fact that guns, hatches, fittings, etc are now all the wrong sizes you will be opening a can of worms. The end result may look nice but will lack any plausibility. Better to keep things realistic and in scale.

Also keep in mind that if it was that easy to fit a Tiger II turret to a Panther hull, it probably would have been done OTL - the fact that it didn’t would suggest that it is not a starter, or at the very least, more trouble than it was worth. As a guide, matching turret ring sizes is always a good start - it doesn't have to be exact but major differences mean major limitations mean unlikely outcomes. 🙂
 
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My comment is really a generalisation of any and all AH AFV design - when you start rescaling OTL turrets and hulls just so that they match up but ignore the fact that teaches, fittings, guns, etc are now all the wrong sizes you will be opening a can of worms. The end result may look nice but will lack any plausibility. Better to keep things realistic and in scale.

Also keep in mind that if it was that easy to fit a Tiger II turret to a Panther hull, it probably would have been done OTL - the fact that it didn’t would suggest that it is not a starter. As a guide, matching turret ring sizes is always a good start - it doesn't have to be exact but major differences mean major limitations. 🙂
Well not a literal Tiger II turret, but a turret of the same design that has the dimensions to fit in a Panther, so turret ring size for example and more.
Or would the downsized version offer to little space for both Panther gun and gunner to be effective?
 
Well not a literal Tiger II turret, but a turret of the same design that has the dimensions to fit in a Panther, so turret ring size for example and more.
Or would the downsized version offer to little space for both Panther gun and gunner to be effective?
Similar design as Tiger II turret but reduced in size to fit the Panther - check. Could work and offer a reasonable amount of space inside - but why? What additional benefits does it offer beyond just being different? Why would the OTL designers have taken this route rather than what they did OTL?
Come up with a good reason and Bob‘s your uncle, as they say! 😉👍
 
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Well, if the Schmalturm is just as good for it, then fine by me.
You know what I was thinking about? The Schmalturm looks a bit like a low poly version of the T-55's turret.
Anyway, tried the fake E-50M turret from WOT.
image.png
 
Similar design as Tiger II turret but reduced in size to fit the Panther - check. Could work and offer a reasonable amount of space inside - but why? What additional benefits does it offer beyond just being different? Why would teh OTL designers have taken this route rather than what they did OTL?
Come up with a good reason and Bob‘s your uncle, as they say! 😉👍

As I understand it wasn't the Tiger II turret taking into account the new knowledge on armor sloping?

Randy
 
As I understand it wasn't the Tiger II turret taking into account the new knowledge on armor sloping?

Randy
The primary reason why the Tiger II turret was different to the Panther turret was because it mounted a completely different gun 8.8cm v 7.5cm. Said turret was therefore larger and heavier and thus required a larger and theoretically more powerful hull. Essentially, a heavy tank v a medium tank. Both had effective sloped armour.

Incidentally, armour sloping as a method of effectively increasing armour thickness and deflection in a trade off against internal volume was well known about before WW2. So while the T-34 may have been the first tank to use extensive armour sloping in virtually all of its plating the technique had already appeared in many earlier tanks to one degree or another.
 
The primary reason why the Tiger II turret was different to the Panther turret was because it mounted a completely different gun 8.8cm v 7.5cm. Said turret was therefore larger and heavier and thus required a larger and theoretically more powerful hull. Essentially, a heavy tank v a medium tank. Both had effective sloped armour.

Incidentally, armour sloping as a method of effectively increasing armour thickness and deflection in a trade off against internal volume was well known about before WW2. So while the T-34 may have been the first tank to use extensive armour sloping in virtually all of its plating the technique had already appeared in many earlier tanks to one degree or another.
Vickers Medium is an example of early sloped armour, but the earlier A7V and Renault FT also included sloped plates.
But really sloped or curved armour - at least as a method of deflecting blows - dates back a long time. Most shields are curved, most helmets are curved, armour plates are curved where possible. Ironclad ships also provided the need to understand how armour works. That doesn't necessarily mean that lessons were fully shared or taken on board, but sloped armour wasn't some esoteric secret so much as something to be looked at once you could make a tank durable enough to reach enemy lines without too many breaking down
 

Driftless

Donor
^^^ (sloped armor)

How much of the delay on making sloped armor more of a norm was related to overall cost of production? Do you need to nclude considering the type of steel itself, combined with assembly: riveting vs casting vs welding, and trained labor for those specific assembly methods?
 
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The center of mass of a turret mounting a long barreled high velocity gun is well forward of the center point of the turret ring. My recollection is that for Panther it was about 1/3 of the turret length back from the front turret lip, and for Royal Tiger it was about 1/5 of the way back from the front turret lip.

All tanks with long barreled high velocity guns must take this weight distribution into account, because both mobility on soft ground and the time between suspension breakages will be determined by the most heavily loaded road wheel/track section, not by the average. This is a reason to mount the turret rearward on the hull, in order to have the center of mass as close to the middle of the track length as possible.

IIRC, Panther already had near-maximum loaded front road wheels due to this issue. Royal Tiger had a very heavily loaded front suspension too. The proposed Panther II with its 8.8 cm L/71 gun in a turret that was shorter front-to-back, and mounted about as far forward on the hull as on the original Panther, might not have worked at all.
 
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^^^ (sloped armor)

How much of the delay on making sloped armor more of a norm was related to overall cost of production? Do you need to nclude considering the type of steel itself, combined with assembly: riveting vs casting vs welding, and trained labor for those specific assembly methods?
Welding itself was around pre WW1, but until electric welding was developed, gas welding was very variable quality and rivetting was much more consistent. In practice that means welding isn't a good option until the very late 20s or early 30s, and you still need to develop good techniques etc.
If you face harden the armour, that complicates welding as the high carbon at the face can result in very brittle welds unless you really know what you're doing.
So there's an argument for simple shapes that are bolted or rivetted in place [1].
Castings are good but big thick casting need care in mould production, cooling and heat treatment or they'll warp or be inherently weak.

[1] or you can use gudgeon pins for assembling castings, as the Somua and some other French tanks did. It's worth commenting just to be able to use such an awesome word.
 
Also while the advantages to sloped armor was understood prior to WW2, the big disadvantage to using it was lack of interior space. Large guns, ammo storage, radios and crew require a certain amount of workable space to function effectively. Adding sloped plate armor to those working parameters usually result in an over sized vehicle. The T34, while a breakthrough design in many respects, would have been viewed as unacceptable in the West.

ric350
 
^^^ (sloped armor)

How much of the delay on making sloped armor more of a norm was related to overall cost of production? Do you need to nclude considering the type of steel itself, combined with assembly: riveting vs casting vs welding, and trained labor for those specific assembly methods?
Also while the advantages to sloped armor was understood prior to WW2, the big disadvantage to using it was lack of interior space. Large guns, ammo storage, radios and crew require a certain amount of workable space to function effectively. Adding sloped plate armor to those working parameters usually result in an over sized vehicle. The T34, while a breakthrough design in many respects, would have been viewed as unacceptable in the West.

ric350
From the analysis of interwar vehicles with sloped armor, this doesn't appear to have involved any additional cost or difficulty and if anything could simplify construction by reducing the number of plates. American experience with T4 Combat Car's sloped plate would also indicate that, contrary to my initial assumption, high levels of sloping were still valid from a weight efficiency standpoint even against bullets. It is also worth noting that given that the armor on the turret, sides and rear of the vehicle are pretty much dictated by other geometrical factors, the only place where a debate really occurs is the front hull.

For the front hull, there was a debate between single sloped plate and a stepped layout (with or without an angled driver's visor plate). The latter, more common layout seems to have been dictated both by the design of observation devices, the installation requirements of certain bow machineguns, and finally an idea of just conforming to the location and shape of the driver without studying the exact optimal layout to accomodate a single sloped plate.

The question of internal volume is not very valid because even on sloped armor tanks, the volume was decided from the start, the sloped armor is not eating into a space that people wanted to use. Ergo T-34 had the space it was because the engineers thought this space was sufficient, not because it had sloped armor.

I would add the rare case of the British Crusader where officers reported that "sloped plates should be used less, like on the hull nose". In this specific context, this was most likely PTSD caused by engineers which overestimated the actual ballistic performance of the sloped plates and made them thinner than needed as a result. However, this is a problem of armour testing and design to an armor basis rather than a fundamental issue of sloped plates (in comparison, the French were far more rigorous with the thickness of sloped plates so wouldn't have had this issue). In addition, once the problem was identified it was suggested to simply rework the thicknesses to get the same basis (of 50mm).
 
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For the front hull, there was a debate between single sloped plate and a stepped layout (with or without an angled driver's visor plate). The latter, more common layout seems to have been dictated both by the design of observation devices, the installation requirements of certain bow machineguns, and finally an idea of just conforming to the location and shape of the driver without studying the exact optimal layout to accomodate a single sloped plate.
This was also my understanding. Far simpler to add driver vision and a hull MG on a stepped hull than one that's uniformly sloped.
Once you get the periscope thing right or are willing to put an obvious hatch/target on the front (T-34) then there's no issue to using sloped armour.
 
I wonder if YouTube revenue is larger for them than admissions revenue and patron donations.

Back in the day, I certainly wouldn't have thought that a museum could derive such a significant part of its funding from videos it makes of its collection.

Forward-going, I'd think this would be a significant factor in the Tank Museum's decisions as to what collection-elements to add. They for instance might commission new construction of a best-historical-accuracy full-scale working model of an AFV that doesn't exist as an historical example, if they concluded that that'd make for especially popular videos. Or, maybe they'd work out deals with other collections, to make videos of their holdings under the Tank Museum brand.
 
Another issue with any very-early-WWII tank against the Japanese is that their troops were very practical, and petrol bottle bombs are easily made and tried anywhere...and most of the tanks presently under discussion were not very liquid tight. So, a straightforward tactic against them under close range jungle conditions would be to fire sustained smoke at a tank group using rifle grenades or knee mortars, then close-assault the tanks with bottle bombs.

Tankers have trouble retaining their composure when burning liquids appear inside their snug steel box filled with ammo and leaked oil/fuel/grease. And, it only takes one opened hatch for the tank to be at least mission killed.

Early-WWII tanks and close range/dense-vegetation fighting were not a good combination. The Matilda II, Valentine and Sherman certainly would be better choices in that regard.

In this time line, though, it's not a matter of being able to choose the best combination (and the points others have made about the awareness of gas warfare are interesting). This is looking at a situation of improving a stopgap weapon, and then how it would fare in a secondary theatre when the better options are reserved for the primary theatre.
 
I wonder if YouTube revenue is larger for them than admissions revenue and patron donations.

Back in the day, I certainly wouldn't have thought that a museum could derive such a significant part of its funding from videos it makes of its collection.

Forward-going, I'd think this would be a significant factor in the Tank Museum's decisions as to what collection-elements to add. They for instance might commission new construction of a best-historical-accuracy full-scale working model of an AFV that doesn't exist as an historical example, if they concluded that that'd make for especially popular videos. Or, maybe they'd work out deals with other collections, to make videos of their holdings under the Tank Museum brand.
Saumur would be good - expands their reach to non-French speakers.
 
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