Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3
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Don't think so... but could be wrong. It was a passing info in a very old magazine, and I lost it.
The SA38 37mm would have been about as good as the Kwk 37 used by the Germans and some were fitted. APDS would be nice but probably not needed until bolt on face hardened armour arrived.
The 60mm AT was used as a fortress gun - probably the only place with enough space an autoloader could be used. But the 47mm SA35 was already a good tank gun (about as good as the 50L42) easily capable of taking out any German tank.
The real (tank-related) problems were lack of radios, one-man turrets, poor ergonomics, plus too many of the feeble SA18 37mm and weak SA34 47mm. The planned changes would help with ergonomics, and result in much better AP performance, but until you can get main tanks a two man turret they are going to struggle to take advantage of the improvements.
If France had held out to round two, they would have had been able to field some pretty good tanks.
Think of a brigade of Vals with SA35 47mm as standard gun while the 6 pounder is being finished off. AP roughly as good as the 2 pounder with a sabot option for difficult targets, and aeasonable HE round. Provided initially for service in France where 47mm ammo is more readily available.
A few of those in the Desert would have been so useful once the Germans arrived.
Yeah. Check the G1 series (G1 R,/L/P/B); can't talk about radios (but I'm sure they'd finally have them) but these would have solved the allready-known small turret problem, and add a 75mm on it as well.
I know.
But a 2man turret on the S35 and at least a receiving radio in every tank would been a big improvement and could have been done using existing designs. Probably would need a technical POD late 38 or early 3 to have enough.
The POD for the organisational, doctrinal and political side is harder to work out. Maybe 1918, the armistice is either rejected or requires an allied victory parade through Berlin and visible presence for long enough to send a clear message. This just might show that a professional core of specialist tank soldiers is an acceptable risk to the government. But it may also remove the main driver for WW2.
Too much thinking of the "defensive" vs "ofensive", not enough proper experimentation in both tank development and tactics, not enough budget, an aversion by France (and the UK, to some extent) to want to get involved in another war, after the traumas of WWI... you'd have to go back to 1928-30, minimum, to get past this.
You're probably right. I was thinking maybe a POD either pre- or post- 1870 war might work, but then started getting sidetracked and only just resisted the urge to dig out my conquest of Gaul books.
Still a robust defence followed by methodical bite-and-hold counterattacks doesn't prevent anyone from developing a mobile reserve with decent anti armour capability, good communications and situational awareness. Three or more DLMs with improved turrets and radios could have been presented as the perfect complement to the Maginot Line.
The old-style infantry support tanks and Char B could have been kept on the northern flank for use in the bite and hold work until some bright spark sees that radios, better turrests and an AT-capable gun would also help on the Belgian frontier as well. Then, maybe some even brighter spark realises that another two or three DLMs would also be very useful as a mobile reserve on the Northern flank. Even if only using uprated Hotchkiss, these would have been useful.
It would need a POD about the time the Maginot line is started as a way to reduce manpower demands on interval divisions, and Gamelin being caught with an Italian spy and discretely sidelined to Martinique or Kerguelen so that someone a bit more forward-thinking (so pretty much anyone) could be in post at critical moments.
Edit: Does anyone with drawing skills and an accessible and working computer feel like drawing up a Valentine with SA35 47mm gun, either in French or BEF colours?
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Can't do the colours, but how about this? I grafted the gun & gun mantlet of the Somua S35
Thanks Hammerbolt.
It looks mean, shrugs off most German and Italian tank shells, fires reasonably good AP and OK HE. I think we're onto a winner.
Even when the 6 pounder arrives, if these are the standard tanks, they may keep them on with some APDS for the few uparmoured enemy tanks (so towed or portee 6 pounders, and tank mounted 3 pounders - a bit like the Germans used 50mm L60 towed AT and 50mm L42 tank guns), but with better AP performance.
Imagine what 50 or so of these at Hannut, Arras or on the flank of the Sedan bridgehead could have done.
On the downside, imagine what Lord Rupert Horsebrain could have done with them at Gazala or in Battleaxe. Still, at least there would be more on the way soon.
Still need to give them proper air cover, or it's Stuka party time again...
You need to add a new weapon to the tank arsenal: a MHWC (Mobile Hostile Weather Creator ), ie a rain maker!
Driftless
Donor
You need to add a new weapon to the tank arsenal: a MHWC (Mobile Hostile Weather Creator ), ie a rain maker!
Or.....
A mobile AA platform (your choice of vehicle) with a pair of 25mm Hotchkiss AA guns, for direct inclusion with the local armor and infantry forces. OK, probably not plausible, but possible!
For reference, the complete list of what was planned AFV-wise in France for the 1940-42 period:
Doomed tanks:
-D2: completion of the 2nd series and upgrade of 1st series to that standard (47mm SA 35 and reliability improvements, trench crossing tail). Total 100 tanks. Death by attrition.
-FCM 36: Reinforced turret with 37mm SA 38, radio as per other lights. Upgrades largely cancelled but possibility of new clutch, improved gear ratios and French injectors to keep them running (unclear status in 1939). 100 tanks. Death by attrition.
Infantry support tanks
- Renault R35. Retrofitted with episcopes, radio and 37mm SA 38 over time. New much better suspension and tracks to be retrofitted (slightly inferior to R40 susp). Installation of 100-110hp uprated version of the engine dependent on successful testing.
- R40: Stabilizes at 120/month prod rate. Standard with 37mm SA 38 and radio. Reinforced FCM turret for new production tanks in late 40. 100-110hp engine retrofit as R35. Possibility of new final drives and Cotal transmission for production tanks.
-H35: retrofit of 37mm SA 38 and radio underway. Death by attrition.
-H39: retrofit of early prod with new high pitch track, 37mm SA 38 and radio. New prod will implement the new track, reinforced FCM turret and improved floor protection against mines. Possibility of Cotal transmission. 300/month planned with US and British assistance. Planned Entente tank for aid to friendly countries like Romania and Turkey.
Cavalry tanks
-S35: retrofit with radio.
-S40: deliveries starting in July 1940. ARL 2 turret after the early prod APX 1CE. Radio as standard. Production in the US planned, between 20 and 40/month in France without full rationalization of production. 2 and 3-man turret with long 47mm likely to start development at FCM, if not already the case. More of a mobility upgrade.
- Successor Cavalry Tank: The requirements were never given but it was clear that the SOMUA formula was obsolescent, with a complex suspension not optimal for high speeds and a powertrain that limits weight too much to have 60mm of armor and a bigger turret/gun. The only tank that was offered for this role was the AMX-40 with Christie suspension and an extremely progressive armor layout and powertrain (spaced sponsons with diesel fuel tanks, highly sloped cast armor, two-stroke diesel). It was rejected in the "duck" configuration we can see today, but was to be extrapolated into a larger vehicle with a 2-man 47mm turret and bigger engine minimum. Scheduled late 1941.
Battle tank
B1 Bis may get transitional features like bigger fuel tanks, increased ammo capacity like late prod types and ARL 2 welded turret armored at 60mm pending the introduction of B1 Ter.
Transitional/non-program tanks
-AMX-38: transitional infantry support tank to replace R40 and Hotchkiss H39 for the Infantry. 25kph, 10 hp/t, 60mm frontally and 40mm elsewhere, 2-man crew with radio installed, 47mm SA 35. Introduction in 1941. Didn't meet actual future infantry support tank reqs due to having 60mm at the front only.
-Renault DAC 1: infantry support tank that didn't meet reqs yet (insufficient mine protection, 3 men due to radioman). Proto in September 1940 maybe. Was not gonna enter service as is but was to be extrapolated into a design that meets requirements.
- B1 Ter: transitional battle tank: Production planned for March 1941. To be produced in the US too. Massive improvement in ease of production, maintenance, reliability, armor, ease of use of the hull 75mm. Better ergos with ARL 2C turret.
- G1R: Non-program, testbed. Proto to be completed in late 1940. Doesn't meet the future battle tank program due to 60mm instead of 80mm armor and insufficient power/weight ratio. Otherwise very promising technologically and may be adopted if urgently needed.
-FCM F1: 12-15 only planned for 1941. Transitional fortification assault tank with 120mm of front armor and a 90 or 105mm gun. Might see service if the Siegfried line is not crossed in the offensives of early 1941.
Future tanks:
-Infantry support tank: 10hp/t, up to 20 tons, 60mm of armor all around, 47mm SA35 gun, good mine protection and range, fully welded. Better crossing capability than previous lights. Basically a 2-man Valentine. Spring 1942 introduction.
-Battle tank: best represented by B40: 40-42 tonnes, 80mm of armor on front and sides, large 3-man 47mm SA37 turret (64-65" turret ring), high mobility (12-15hp/t), 75mm or 105mm hull HE thrower. Oleopneumatic suspension and electric transmissions were considered. This was changed in June 1940 to mount a 3-man 75mm turret and delete the hull gun. 1942 introduction.
- Fortification assault tank: FCM F1-like but designed for 120mm armor from the start, 9-10hp/t, 90mm gun or 135-155mm howitzer.
To be edited.
Doomed tanks:
-D2: completion of the 2nd series and upgrade of 1st series to that standard (47mm SA 35 and reliability improvements, trench crossing tail). Total 100 tanks. Death by attrition.
-FCM 36: Reinforced turret with 37mm SA 38, radio as per other lights. Upgrades largely cancelled but possibility of new clutch, improved gear ratios and French injectors to keep them running (unclear status in 1939). 100 tanks. Death by attrition.
Infantry support tanks
- Renault R35. Retrofitted with episcopes, radio and 37mm SA 38 over time. New much better suspension and tracks to be retrofitted (slightly inferior to R40 susp). Installation of 100-110hp uprated version of the engine dependent on successful testing.
- R40: Stabilizes at 120/month prod rate. Standard with 37mm SA 38 and radio. Reinforced FCM turret for new production tanks in late 40. 100-110hp engine retrofit as R35. Possibility of new final drives and Cotal transmission for production tanks.
-H35: retrofit of 37mm SA 38 and radio underway. Death by attrition.
-H39: retrofit of early prod with new high pitch track, 37mm SA 38 and radio. New prod will implement the new track, reinforced FCM turret and improved floor protection against mines. Possibility of Cotal transmission. 300/month planned with US and British assistance. Planned Entente tank for aid to friendly countries like Romania and Turkey.
Cavalry tanks
-S35: retrofit with radio.
-S40: deliveries starting in July 1940. ARL 2 turret after the early prod APX 1CE. Radio as standard. Production in the US planned, between 20 and 40/month in France without full rationalization of production. 2 and 3-man turret with long 47mm likely to start development at FCM, if not already the case. More of a mobility upgrade.
- Successor Cavalry Tank: The requirements were never given but it was clear that the SOMUA formula was obsolescent, with a complex suspension not optimal for high speeds and a powertrain that limits weight too much to have 60mm of armor and a bigger turret/gun. The only tank that was offered for this role was the AMX-40 with Christie suspension and an extremely progressive armor layout and powertrain (spaced sponsons with diesel fuel tanks, highly sloped cast armor, two-stroke diesel). It was rejected in the "duck" configuration we can see today, but was to be extrapolated into a larger vehicle with a 2-man 47mm turret and bigger engine minimum. Scheduled late 1941.
Battle tank
B1 Bis may get transitional features like bigger fuel tanks, increased ammo capacity like late prod types and ARL 2 welded turret armored at 60mm pending the introduction of B1 Ter.
Transitional/non-program tanks
-AMX-38: transitional infantry support tank to replace R40 and Hotchkiss H39 for the Infantry. 25kph, 10 hp/t, 60mm frontally and 40mm elsewhere, 2-man crew with radio installed, 47mm SA 35. Introduction in 1941. Didn't meet actual future infantry support tank reqs due to having 60mm at the front only.
-Renault DAC 1: infantry support tank that didn't meet reqs yet (insufficient mine protection, 3 men due to radioman). Proto in September 1940 maybe. Was not gonna enter service as is but was to be extrapolated into a design that meets requirements.
- B1 Ter: transitional battle tank: Production planned for March 1941. To be produced in the US too. Massive improvement in ease of production, maintenance, reliability, armor, ease of use of the hull 75mm. Better ergos with ARL 2C turret.
- G1R: Non-program, testbed. Proto to be completed in late 1940. Doesn't meet the future battle tank program due to 60mm instead of 80mm armor and insufficient power/weight ratio. Otherwise very promising technologically and may be adopted if urgently needed.
-FCM F1: 12-15 only planned for 1941. Transitional fortification assault tank with 120mm of front armor and a 90 or 105mm gun. Might see service if the Siegfried line is not crossed in the offensives of early 1941.
Future tanks:
-Infantry support tank: 10hp/t, up to 20 tons, 60mm of armor all around, 47mm SA35 gun, good mine protection and range, fully welded. Better crossing capability than previous lights. Basically a 2-man Valentine. Spring 1942 introduction.
-Battle tank: best represented by B40: 40-42 tonnes, 80mm of armor on front and sides, large 3-man 47mm SA37 turret (64-65" turret ring), high mobility (12-15hp/t), 75mm or 105mm hull HE thrower. Oleopneumatic suspension and electric transmissions were considered. This was changed in June 1940 to mount a 3-man 75mm turret and delete the hull gun. 1942 introduction.
- Fortification assault tank: FCM F1-like but designed for 120mm armor from the start, 9-10hp/t, 90mm gun or 135-155mm howitzer.
To be edited.
Not to ruin the story 47mm SA 35 is weaker than you think. It was limited to 60mm at point blank at 0° at best against RHA, which makes it marginal once Germans addons and 50mm HHA plates appear in July 1940. 50mm KwK L42 meanwhile went to 70-80mm, which threatens French 60mm-armored tanks.
2 pounder is actually better at taking out tanks with 70-80mm with uncapped and capped ammo too, and is more likely to remain until 6pdr happens.
Radios were standard on all production tanks since early 1940 and were mass retrofitted on the rest.
The French armor situation is generally improving in the 1940-42 period but still faces some challenges. France will vastly outproduce Germany alone, and has spammable infantry support tanks, and proliferation of radios and more common massing of tanks will generally improve the situation.
The challenges are in the armament and German developments. 37mm SA 38 will not penetrate 50mm plates without APDS (which is still marginal) and those will start proliferating in 1940 and especially 1941. The 47mm SA 35 is marginal until APDS proliferates, and no better gun will be fielded until one of the future tanks are (or SOMUA gets a new 3-man turret). This leaves AT guns, Laffly 47mm SPGs, SOMUA Sau40s and the ARL V 39 from late 1940 (still a nice combo but less flexible than a tank).
The German proliferation of short and long 50s will also make 40 and 60mm French armor insufficient, removing an advantage they had in May-June 1940.
2 and 3-man turrets would also still be
in development in 1941, unless SOMUA gets an upgrade.
France will still prevail of course. They and the Brits vastly outproduce Germany and sideshots, mobility kills and logistics kills will be enough to further attrition the Germans. But it's worth keeping this in mind when writing a 1941 TL as the vibe changes quite a bit compared to 1940.
For the 2 pounder : 37mm ( 60° ) at 500 yards(457m), using an AP round
For the 47mm : 40mm at 600 meters.
Source : Bird, Lorrin; Livingston, Robert (2001). World War II Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery
British charts give 57 and 58mm @30°@500 yards using 2pdr AP and APCBC.
For me the bottom line is this: in May/June 1940 both the 2pdr and the 47mm could kill (or at the very least cripple) pretty much every german tank at any combat range. Even the french infantry's 25mm AT gun was a danger to german armour, at medium & short range. The reverse was most definetly not true. The standard german AT gun, the 37mm, was basically useless vs the Matilda and B1B, almost useless to the front of an S35 (while it would be dangerous to the sides & rear) and even struggled vs some of the french 2-man little tanks like the R35. The rushed plate addons the germans got to the PzIII/IV series would barelly keep up with french gun upgrades, assuming a longer war.
What the Australians choose for their mechanized force will depend on where they want to deploy it. From the size of their tank and other AFV purchases over the past two decades or so, it looks like they are focused primarily on deploying a single well-supported brigade overseas. They have options to put together a mechanized brigade or a light infantry brigade, but I doubt there's enough slack for both to be overseas at the same time unless there is a huge mobilization. If this is the case, concentrating combat power with heavy tracked armored vehicles would tend to make sense, especially if they expect to be fighting alongside comparable American or British forces.
If the Australians were worried about fighting in their own high north, probably against the Indonesians, they would be looking at a lot of the same environmental and geographic challenges that the South Africans faced (vast deserts) and the wheeled options would probably make more sense. My analysis of the alternative is that the Australians are not worried about a land invasion of their northern coastline. The hazard is relatively small because such an invasion force would have to cross thousands of miles of unforgiving terrain to reach any strategic centers of gravity and the likelihood of an invasion happening is infinitesimally small.
Looking back at the Australian Abrams purchase, we need to take the temporal context into consideration. The decision was made in 2004 or so and the tanks were delivered in 2006. In the 2000s, medium forces were a popular concept but had not been proven in combat. The active fighting that Australia was looking at was in Afghanistan, a light infantry war, and Iraq, a heavy mech invasion. Korea would have also been a point of interest, and that was going to be a heavy mech war if anything happened. Overall, I see little reason for the Australians to adopt a wheeled tank like a Rooikat, especially when the rest of the armored force is dependent on tracked APCs. The Rooikat in particular would be a poor choice because of the lack of an IFV or APC version, but that is not something that a country like Australia couldn't solve. However, if the Australians are looking at the possibility of land warfare on their northern coast, the Rooikat was one of the only 8x8s of the time that could really provide good protection (for a wheeled vehicle) because its protection wasn't compromised by the need to fit in a C-130 or be amphibious (or both). Other options could be the Centauro or the Vextra. The Centauro was just wrapping up production as the Australian M1 order happened and the related Freccia IFV was about to enter service, while the Vextra 105 was derived from a similarly sized (28-34 ton) IFV that was a predecessor to the VBCI.
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