Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

[longtimelurkerinMD]

So basically in a perfect ambush one shell can get what? Three shermans before coming out the third and hitting the fourth but without the energy needed to crack the armor on that fourth one?

And rename the vehicle "Odysseus's Bow" or "Vater ist jezt zu haus".

Pushing on from German late war napkinwaffe, question for Claymore, and not that the US would do anything like this in OTL, but what about a US vehicle SPA/TD based on the naval 5 in. 38 cal. looking something resembling the late war M40 GMC. From what I can see on navweapons seems like it could do the same thing. I can imagine that being a very lethal tank killer as well as good artillery, not to mention its AA abilities. At sea it was certainly considered the best dual purpose weapon of its kind. On land its not going to do what it could do on a ship platform certainly, I imagine ammo stowage would be the big thing, but still pretty nasty.

 

[Claymore]

...and the natural evolution of the Gorgon to the Ausf. B model which added a point defence hull-mounted mg and additional frontal armour.

 

[Claymore]

And rename the vehicle "Odysseus's Bow" or "Vater ist jezt zu haus".

Pushing on from German late war napkinwaffe, question for Claymore, and not that the US would do anything like this in OTL, but what about a US vehicle SPA/TD based on the naval 5 in. 38 cal. looking something resembling the late war M40 GMC. From what I can see on navweapons seems like it could do the same thing. I can imagine that being a very lethal tank killer as well as good artillery, not to mention its AA abilities. At sea it was certainly considered the best dual purpose weapon of its kind. On land its not going to do what it could do on a ship platform certainly, I imagine ammo stowage would be the big thing, but still pretty nasty.

Hmmmm, I think I may have done something along these lines before... I will check it out tomorrow. 👍

 

[mudhead]

...the superstructure still needed to be open at the rear when in action in order to allow for the necessary recoil and to give the crew space to reload.

With a fully enclosed superstructure, I think fume extraction would be a problem, so this is probably a practical design.

 

[Claymore]

With a fully enclosed superstructure, I think fume extraction would be a problem, so this is probably a practical design.

Quite so. The Gorgon’s superstructure is entirely open topped (you can see the rear end of the breach) and also requires the large doors on the rear surface to be open when the gun is in action. I will post a rear view of the vehicle which may help visualise things. 👍

 

[wietze]

Quite so. The Gorgon’s superstructure is entirely open topped (you can see the rear end of the breach) and also requires the large doors on the rear surface to be open when the gun is in action. I will post a rear view of the vehicle which may help visualise things. 👍

maybe the rear door hinges are located slightly lower, so that it creates a good working platform, and a only a small height difference with the people outside the vehicle handing rounds.
Somehow i would expect that sooner or later it would be fitted with a removable canvas top like the ones you see on the loadbed of some military lorries.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Somehow i would expect that sooner or later it would be fitted with a removable canvas top like the ones you see on the loadbed of some military lorries.

To prevent 3 feet of snow from accumulating inside the vehicle I presume?

I've always wondered how open top vehicles fared in the winter, with all snow and ice.

 

[wietze]

To prevent 3 feet of snow from accumulating inside the vehicle I presume?

I've always wondered how open top vehicles fared in the winter, with all snow and ice.

and keep the rain out, just to keep the gun etc in better condition

edit: look what i found, this article shows a marder with a canvas top

Panzerjäger 38(t) für 7.62 cm PaK 36(r) 'Marder III' (Sd.Kfz.139) - Tank Encyclopedia

The Marder III was a light tank destroyer built on the chassis of the outdated Panzer 38(t) light tank.

tanks-encyclopedia.com

and some nashorn photos, and if you look closely you can see some form of a tarp

Panzerjäger Hornisse/Nashorn | Lone Sentry Blog

 

[wietze]

a bit along the lines how it worked on the M44, you can see the brackets in the pic, over which the canvas would fit.

 

[Claymore]

Quite so. The Gorgon’s superstructure is entirely open topped (you can see the rear end of the breach) and also requires the large doors on the rear surface to be open when the gun is in action. I will post a rear view of the vehicle which may help visualise things. 👍

As promised...

 

[Claymore]

a bit along the lines how it worked on the M44, you can see the brackets in the pic, over which the canvas would fit.

Hold that thought... 😉

 

[Claymore]

And rename the vehicle "Odysseus's Bow" or "Vater ist jezt zu haus".

Pushing on from German late war napkinwaffe, question for Claymore, and not that the US would do anything like this in OTL, but what about a US vehicle SPA/TD based on the naval 5 in. 38 cal. looking something resembling the late war M40 GMC. From what I can see on navweapons seems like it could do the same thing. I can imagine that being a very lethal tank killer as well as good artillery, not to mention its AA abilities. At sea it was certainly considered the best dual purpose weapon of its kind. On land its not going to do what it could do on a ship platform certainly, I imagine ammo stowage would be the big thing, but still pretty nasty.

Hmmmm, I think I may have done something along these lines before... I will check it out tomorrow. 👍

I thought I had done something similar but with a different 5" gun and an earlier hull...

...and here you go with the M40 hull mounting a 5" L/38 naval rifle - as with just about all naval guns, they are not small!

 

[Claymore]

Hold that thought... 😉

Something a little like this...

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Hi folks!

So, while in uffish thought I stood, the plague of the Panther's final drive percolated through my mind. Doing a quick Wiki, I note that the Tiger was in development from '38 to '41 and the Panther developed in '42-ish.

Now the question that came to mind was "Why didn't they use ideas/bits of the Tiger's drive for the Panther?"

They are of a similar weight. Though obviously the Panther probably didn't start out so 'Paunchy' and I've not read or noted folks complaining about anything 'Touchy' with the Tiger's drive.

Does any one have anything enlightening about the matter? Was something about the Panther's drive just 'Simpler', which they obviously might have wanted to help production.... even if they then find things get 'Finicky' in the field.

Cheers! Also nice Gorgon.

 

[Not James Stockdale]

Ultimately, the problem was the use of spur gears in the final drives, and the inability of the Germans to produce steel sufficiently strong for such an application. This problem was made worse by the overloaded final drive housing and components flexing under excessive loads and leaving the gears out of perfect alignment. I think the usual course of failure involved broken teeth fragments damaging bearings.

The final drive served as the further reduction of the driving RPM. It contained two spur gear sets. The housing was sealed off by labyrinth packing at the point of the drive sprocket hub. The drive sprocket was joined to the final drive by its drive sprocket shaft. the toothed rims of the drive sprocket could be replaced without actually having to remove the sprockets themselves. The final drive (gear teeth and bearing) was the weakest part of the Panther. It was a risky proposition to use a spur gear system for transferring the drive power – especially considering that the available steel during the war did not have a particularly high stress tolerance. A better solution would have been to use an epicyclic gear system; a prototype final reduction drive using planetary gear reduction had already been tested and had performed flawlessly. However, as mentioned previously, a shortage of gear cutting machinery for the hollow gearing prevented this type of final drive from being mass produced. In order to bridge the gap a final reduction gear system was installed in front of the main gear drive, but due to installation restrictions its mounting were far too weak and could not be strengthened. Because of gear teeth being under too great a load and the weak mountings, the gears were pushed out of alignment – virtually guaranteeing mount and tooth breakage.
The general consensus of the industry was that inner-toothed gear wheels could not be produced due to a lack of proper machinery. This meant that a final drive using planetary gear reduction and pre-selector spur gearing – found to be reliable in company testing – could not be installed in the production tanks. All attempts to improve the final drive met with failure, despite the offers of a special bonus as an incentive. The housings, which initially had proven too weak and whose outer mounts had been bent out of alignment by the track’s pull, were eventually replaced by stronger ones.

page 60 “Panther and its Variants” by Walther Speilberger

Seals and fuel pumps were other major problems, especially considering German shortages of rubber for hoses and gaskets.
Everything on the Panther leaked, so parts like the final drives were often underlubricated, which would make the thermal situation even worse for poorly made gear teeth.

From the Editor: Panther Reliability

(This piece was originally posted on my old blog on Feb 18, 2014. We are slowly in the process of migrating the popular material from the blog over to here.) Over at the World of Tanks forum, there…

tankandafvnews.com

 

[Claymore]

Ultimately, the problem was the use of spur gears in the final drives, and the inability of the Germans to produce steel sufficiently strong for such an application. This problem was made worse by the overloaded final drive housing and components flexing under excessive loads and leaving the gears out of perfect alignment. I think the usual course of failure involved broken teeth fragments damaging bearings.

Seals and fuel pumps were other major problems, especially considering German shortages of rubber for hoses and gaskets.
Everything on the Panther leaked, so parts like the final drives were often underlubricated, which would make the thermal situation even worse for poorly made gear teeth.

From the Editor: Panther Reliability

(This piece was originally posted on my old blog on Feb 18, 2014. We are slowly in the process of migrating the popular material from the blog over to here.) Over at the World of Tanks forum, there…

tankandafvnews.com

Great update and insight, thanks for sharing. 👍

 

[AJE]

Now the question that came to mind was "Why didn't they use ideas/bits of the Tiger's drive for the Panther?"

They did this on the planned Panther II, which used the Tiger II's transmission and an upgraded final drive, but this drivetrain was only used on the Jagdpanther, never on regular Panthers.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

They did this on the planned Panther II, which used the Tiger II's transmission and an upgraded final drive, but this drivetrain was only used on the Jagdpanther, never on regular Panthers.

At work.

Yes, I'd heard about the Panther II and Tiger II stuff.

I'm just wondering about the Tiger I production. What did it use on the 'Final drive' as a set up? Whwt prevented its mechanism being adapted?

Or are we looking at Nazty internecine politics again?

Much cheers.

 

[AJE]

I'm just wondering about the Tiger I production. What did it use on the 'Final drive' as a set up? Whwt prevented its mechanism being adapted?

It used a planetary gear like the prototype Panther (unlike the Panther, it was produced in small numbers).

 

[Peebothuhlu]

It used a planetary gear like the prototype Panther (unlike the Panther, it was produced in small numbers).

At work.

Ah HA! So the fact that they'd only planned a 'Relatively' low production run plus its development being 'Early' war, again relatively, is why the Tiger's final drive was a 'Swiss watch' affair hence didn't give people breakage issues in the field.

Awesome to learn.