Air Torpedos at Jutland?

[Carl Schwamberger]

Two parts to this one.

1. What were the possibilities of the Brits having a air launched torpedo capability present @ the Jutland battle. This assumes they latch onto the idea of 'flying torpedo boats' and push for it.

2. Assuming they are able to do so, how does it affect airpower development and naval theory if one or more of the German capitol ships takes a hit?

2b. ...sinks

I am not eough of a expert to comment at all on the first item. 2b it seems to me results in much larger development of naval or maritime combat aviation and capitol ship development being much different in detail from OTL.

 

[David S Poepoe]

No effect. Aside from the technical issues, the next major problem would be communications. Rutland sighted the Germans, but I'm not aware how far up the chain of command his observation was passed, except that it never got to the most important person, Jellicoe.

There was an early war strike against Wilhelmshaven carried out by the British in bomb carrying flying boats, but torpedoes are much heavier. Four seaplanes bearing one torpedo apiece isn't going to make much of an impact. They are far more better used as scouts for the time period.

But going along with the OP, a single hit upon a German warship probably won't sink it. I'm not even considering that there would be any major flooding on a capital ship that may effect it, but the smaller cruisers may have a hard time.

 

[MattII]

1. Non-existent, at this point aircraft struggled to carry torpedoes at the best, and they had to be launched while landed mostly, and putting a tiny, fragile 1916 aircraft in that sort of danger (they'd have to be pretty close to guarantee a hit), is going to see the aircraft lost long before it's had a chance to actually aim the thing.

2. Probably very little, in fact it might see aircraft get used slightly less if things get screwed up badly enough.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

...

But going along with the OP, a single hit upon a German warship probably won't sink it. I'm not even considering that there would be any major flooding on a capital ship that may effect it, but the smaller cruisers may have a hard time.

I did not think so, not a single torpedo. It might even remain in the battle line. The exception would be a steering or propulsion hit. That at the wrong moment would be a bad thing.

No effect. Aside from the technical issues, the next major problem would be communications. Rutland sighted the Germans, but I'm not aware how far up the chain of command his observation was passed, except that it never got to the most important person, Jellicoe.

That same problem seems to have bedeveld the Brits in all directions. The radio analysis of Room 40 seems to have taken a wrong turn when forwarded to Jellecoe. A problem that still plagued the British navy in 1940.

There was an early war strike against Wilhelmshaven carried out by the British in bomb carrying flying boats, but torpedoes are much heavier. Four seaplanes bearing one torpedo apiece isn't going to make much of an impact. They are far more better used as scouts for the time period.

I was thinking a ability to mass sortie at least 24 aircraft would be the minimum needed to accomplish anything of note. To do that a much larger nominal capability would be needed to account for unready aircraft and aborted launches.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

... and putting a tiny, fragile 1916 aircraft in that sort of danger (they'd have to be pretty close to guarantee a hit), is going to see the aircraft lost long before it's had a chance to actually aim the thing.

...

So the German shipboard AA capability was fairly robust then? How much difference might there be between a 40 knot torpedo boat and a 80 or 110 knot torpedo plane?

 

[Saphroneth]

So the German shipboard AA capability was fairly robust then? How much difference might there be between a 40 knot torpedo boat and a 80 or 110 knot torpedo plane?

My instinct is that even 80 is pushing it. The Cuckoo had first flight in 1917, and that only had a speed of about 92 knots (may be flat out and sans torpedo.)

- and the seaplanes of the time look like order 70 knots (again, not sure if that's even with a torpedo).

 

[vizzer]

At the time the most dangerous weapon an aircraft could carry was a radio, when it worked.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Hmm.. how many sorties has radios in 1916? 1917? 1918? One of the air war histories on my shelf states radios for artillery observation were fairly common with the French in 1917.

 

[Saphroneth]

Hmm.. how many sorties has radios in 1916? 1917? 1918? One of the air war histories on my shelf states radios for artillery observation were fairly common with the French in 1917.

Exactly why they're important - real time fall of shot information is solid gold in this time period, especially if your enemy doesn't have it. It's why cruisers and battleships all had aircraft launch gear pretty much as soon as practical - a single floatplane buzzing overhead could decide the engagement.


There's a really, really powerful moment in one of Stirling's books (The Chosen), which is set in a world with roughly WW1/SCW technology - no dreadnoughts, though they're on the slipways when this battle takes place, and a few flattops launching biplanes.
It's just before the big decisive naval battle, and the admiral (Adm. Farr) contemplates the situation before him.
His fleet is larger than the Chosen one by four battleships, though theirs are somewhat more modern and his own are a bit damaged from prior air attacks - some turrets don't work. Both fleets are in the high teens of battleships, basically. And he has one crucial advantage.
Air.
The Chosen aircraft carriers have expended all their aircraft and are withdrawing, while his own are able to put up spotters over the Chosen fleet.
He orders a fleet turn to port, so his ships are crossing the enemy T - at a range of over the horizon, I might add.
Meaning the Chosen have the following problem. Advance, and be taken under plunging fire from air-observed shot for many miles until they get into their own, line-of-sight range. Copy his turn, and never get into range. Or withdraw, allowing him to refit and rearm, and he'll be stronger for any future clash.
"All his life had been a preparation for this moment."



...sorry, that got away from me.
But the basic point is - to be able to direct accurate fire at the maximum range of a battleship's main guns is hugely, incredibly powerful for one simple reason. That fire will be plunging fire. (And we all know what plunging fire does to deck armour...)

 

[Cockroach]

We had a similar thread a few months back:

The poms' had a small number of Short Admiralty Type 81s capable of dropping 14in torpedoes from August 1914... but those aircraft were rather marginal (with a torp they couldn't carry an observer and were limited to about 30 minutes fuel).

The Short Type 184 introduced in 1915 is the first even marginally useful torpedo bomber, but again was limited to a 14in torp; was relatively short ranged (2.75 hour endurance, probably when lightly loaded... with any useful reserves that means a combat radius of about an hour's flight time, probably less than 100km with a torp) and when operated in the med suffered from poor performance. Still, didn't stop it claiming the first two ships sunk by torps launched from aircraft... though, one of those was launched with the aircraft landed.

I suspect for an effective torpedo bomber (i.e. able to carry an 18ish in torp and not going to fall out of the sky out of fuel before it's got out of eyesight of it's base) you're probably talking late 1916 as the earliest it'd enter service with mid-1917 more likely. By the time you've got sufficient aircraft built; people trained up and even basic tactics developed you can probably add six months or more to that you're certainly pushing too late in the war. Further more, I suspect with limited tactical development and less ability to coordinate the aircraft than in early WW2 the hit rate against a target moving at capital ship cruising speed (12-15 knots), let alone at top speed (20ish knots), is going to be poor.

 

[Simon]

What were the possibilities of the Brits having a air launched torpedo capability present at the Jutland battle. This assumes they latch onto the idea of 'flying torpedo boats' and push for it.

Well the first use of an aerial torpedo was in mid-1915 down in the Aegean but that was only against supply ships or tugboats, it does however show that it was potentially possible and some officers had been calling for the idea since the Cuxhaven raid at the end of 1914. The Sopwith Cuckoo they were planning on using to carry out a torpedo attack against Wilhelmshaven appears to have taken approximately two years to develop and that's with the delays caused by the selected production companies not having relevant experience. Shaving six months or so off that and starting it right after the Cuxhaven raid might give you just enough time, however aeroplane and aero engine design and development came on leaps and bounds during the war so you may well not have the underlying knowledge. As Vizzer said though one of the major things you'd probably also need would be on-board wireless to really improve effectiveness.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Anything else besides the Cukoo that could have been rigged for such a use?

 

[Simon]

Anything else besides the Cukoo that could have been rigged for such a use?

There's the Sopwith Type 860 torpedo bomber which first flew in 1914 and the Short Type 184 torpedo bomber that first flew in 1915 which have potential, the trade-off of earlier planes though is the use of smaller torpedoes over the Cuckoo's later Mk.IX 18-inch ones.

How much are you willing to play around with points of divergence and change things? There was a fair bit of thought and experimentation going on with carriers in the early 1900s as shown by this thread over on the NavWeaps forums. Clement Ader in particular seems to have been on to a winner with his proposals of what we know think of as standard carrier characteristics featuring a flat and unobstructed deck for a landing area, aeroplanes to stored below the flight deck and brought up and down via lifts with folding wings for ease of transport and storage, the ship sailing into the wind for take-offs and landings. If Rear Admiral Mark Kerr were to win the design argument in 1913 then you could see the old cruiser HMS Hermes being converted more along Ader's line of thought rather than Admiral of the Fleet Sir Arthur Wilson's more conservative ones that had separate forward and aft flying decks with a crane moving the aircraft between them for take-offs and landings. That would give roughly three years to carry out the conversion work, get her back into commission, and trained up. With the Short Type 184 coming into service in 1915 that gives you your torpedo bomber to carry on her, keep the floats but add wheels on the side like they did with the Sopwith Type 860 and they can land either back on the deck or the water and be recovered by crane from the hangar deck.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Sounds like the margin here is very thin for having such an attack by the time of Jutland. Possible, but improbable. Such a event would require both a maximum effort to produce, and a delay of the big naval battle for up to half a year.

 

[David S Poepoe]

That same problem seems to have bedeveld the Brits in all directions. The radio analysis of Room 40 seems to have taken a wrong turn when forwarded to Jellecoe. A problem that still plagued the British navy in 1940.

I'm considering the poor communications just between Beatty and Jellicoe.

 

[MattII]

So the German shipboard AA capability was fairly robust then?

No, but neither are the aircraft.

 

[Saphroneth]

I think I may have a plausible route for it.

1) The big, big mistakes at Dardanelles (not Gallipoli, Dardanelles - the original, all-naval version which nearly forced the straits and made the Ottoman Empire surrender under threat of bombardment of their capital) don't all happen - as such, Churchill's star is brightened by this innovative strategy which removes the Ottomans from the war. (As such, the war develops better generally.)
2) As First Lord, he also develops an obsession with torpedo planes. This results in torpedo planes not much better than the 60-80 knot, small torpedo ones of OTL - but many more of them at once.
3) Their explicit role is to prevent the German surface fleet from being able to run away from an engagement once initiated, by damaging a few of their units such that they can't withdraw at fleet speed - either they're abandoned, or the fleet stays slow enough to be engaged more generally.

That should do.

 

[Cook]

1. What were the possibilities of the Brits having a air launched torpedo capability present @ the Jutland battle.

At the battle of Jutland, the Admiralty had available two Short Type 184 seaplanes that could carry a 14 in. (355 mm) torpedo aboard the Seaplane Tender, HMS Engadine. The Type 184 was a two seater (pilot/bomb aimer and observer/wireless operator). Moreover, the Type 184 was battle-tested; having launched a torpedo that struck a Turkish warship during the Gallipoli Campaign. One of the Type 184’s did carry out a reconnaissance mission during the early stages of the Battle of Jutland, but was restricted by the weather conditions; most of the battle took place in sea states far too rough for a seaplane to take off in, and would have been extremely hazardous to fly in if they had got airborne. The same factor that prevented the German Zeppelins from providing reconnaissance also.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

... One of the Type 184’s did carry out a reconnaissance mission during the early stages of the Battle of Jutland, but was restricted by the weather conditions; most of the battle took place in sea states far too rough for a seaplane to take off in, and would have been extremely hazardous to fly in if they had got airborne. ....

Underlines the need for a stable platform for flight ops. Sea planes have severe limits.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

Underlines the need for a stable platform for flight ops. Sea planes have severe limits.

Care to elaborate?