AHC WI German forces in Belgium and France do not adopt "Frightfullness"

In otl a big factor in Allied propaganda was the outragous behaviour of German occupying forces. I have heard it alleged that unless you were a Nazu target the Nazi occupation was less severe than that in WW1?

Might the reaction in the USA have been different?
 
German atrocities in Belgium, especially in the opening months of the war, were partially driven by memories of the franc-tirereurs of the Franco-Prussian war. This was both caused by German doctrine, which had changed to be harsher on occupied regions in hopes of preventing similar resistance from interfering with future operations, and by individual German soldiers, who had heard much about such sneaky partisans and were constantly paranoid while anywhere in occupied territory. Preventing the Franco-Prussian war probably also butterflies WW1, but perhaps a different German cultural memory of the war and different written German doctrine could reduce the number of early atrocities?

As for how this would effect public opinion in the US (and possibly Britain as well); it's highly likely that this would lessen some of the opposition Germany encountered. However, it's very difficult to assess what effects that would have on America's actions. Support for Britain and France involved many groups with connections to those countries or which viewed Germany and Austria-Hungary as having primary fault for starting the war. Atrocity reports hardened opinions and demoralized pro-German sentiment, but what concrete actions America might have taken without receiving as many such reports (and the British press would still be happy to report rumors of German illegal activity, even less than credible ones) is harder to determine.
 
In otl a big factor in Allied propaganda was the outragous behaviour of German occupying forces.
It depends what you mean by outrageous. Invading a neutral country, whose independence you had yourself guaranteed in writing was generally considered outrageous by the morality of the time. Shooting devoutly religious English nurses as spy's, was typical of the Germans' behaviour, but was probably justified under international law - does this count as outrageous? Then you have the frequent arbitrary atrocities which I assume you mainly refer to.

Invading Belgium was alone outrageous behavior, and US opinion is going to swing against Germany no matter what because of it. But the real influence on US opinion was unrestricted submarine warfare, and German diplomatic aggression. I don't really see fewer atrocities in Belgium as being anything war changing.
 
It depends what you mean by outrageous. Invading a neutral country, whose independence you had yourself guaranteed in writing was generally considered outrageous by the morality of the time. Shooting devoutly religious English nurses as spy's, was typical of the Germans' behaviour, but was probably justified under international law - does this count as outrageous? Then you have the frequent arbitrary atrocities which I assume you mainly refer to.

Invading Belgium was alone outrageous behavior, and US opinion is going to swing against Germany no matter what because of it. But the real influence on US opinion was unrestricted submarine warfare, and German diplomatic aggression. I don't really see fewer atrocities in Belgium as being anything war changing.
The atrocities in Belgium DID have a major influence on American opinion, both because of reporting on them and because Americans volunteering abroad saw them and told their friends and family. The taboo on invading other countries resulted from the world wars; it did not precede them. Countries in Europe had been periodically invading other countries in Europe for a long time before the Great War and the average American did not give a sh!t. The USW issue is pretty difficult to separate from the issue of supplying weapons to the Entente, and a large part of the support for supplying weapons to the Entente was a result of the Rape of Belgium.
 

marathag

Banned
Hard to do, since it was encouraged at the highest level from the last large scale operations in Africa and then in China

A great task awaits you: you are to revenge the grievous injustice that has been done. The Chinese have overturned the law of nations; they have mocked the sacredness of the envoy, the duties of hospitality in a way unheard of in world history. It is all the more outrageous that this crime has been committed by a nation that takes pride in its ancient culture. Show the old Prussian virtue. Present yourselves as Christians in the cheerful endurance of suffering. May honor and glory follow your banners and arms. Give the whole world an example of manliness and discipline.

You know full well that you are to fight against a cunning, brave, well-armed, and cruel enemy. When you encounter him, know this: no quarter will be given. Prisoners will not be taken. Exercise your arms such that for a thousand years no Chinese will dare to look cross-eyed at a German. Maintain discipline. May God’s blessing be with you, the prayers of an entire nation and my good wishes go with you, each and every one. Open the way to civilization once and for all! Now you may depart! Farewell, comrades!
 
The taboo on invading other countries resulted from the world wars; it did not precede them
Rubbish. Invading another country with a plausible pretext perhaps wasn't a taboo, but doing it with absolutely no pretext and to a country whose neutrality you had specifically guaranteed, certainly was.
If it was always alright, then Cavour, Bismarck, Schwarzenberg and Gorchakov are all bigger fools than I thought for going out their way to make war only when a pretext was available.
The reason Belgium was so electrifying to public opinion was the fact that Germany so clearly had no justification for the action, and had specifically pledged to defend the nations neutrality.
 
Rubbish. Invading another country with a plausible pretext perhaps wasn't a taboo, but doing it with absolutely no pretext and to a country whose neutrality you had specifically guaranteed, certainly was.
The US was not a signatory to that treaty. Britain was, but Britain was not the US. Europe had seen the Crimean War, the Austro-Prussian War, the Franco-Prussian War, various Balkan wars, various Italian wars of unification without the American public taking sides. Even during the War of 1812 the US didn't care about the defeat or victory of Napoleon.

Belgium electrified American public opinion because of the atrocities committed there, not because of some American commitment to Belgian neutrality.
 
The US was not a signatory to that treaty. Britain was, but Britain was not the US. Europe had seen the Crimean War, the Austro-Prussian War, the Franco-Prussian War, various Balkan wars, various Italian wars of unification without the American public taking sides. Even during the War of 1812 the US didn't care about the defeat or victory of Napoleon.

Belgium electrified American public opinion because of the atrocities committed there, not because of some American commitment to Belgian neutrality.
The events are so close together they are really hard to separate. As I said the invasion of Belgium itself was an 'outrage'. My contention is that this, along with the myriad of other reasons, was part of why the US favoured the Entente. Would it be less to some degree without the German atrocities in Belgium? Almost certainly. Does it really change the outcome the war? Of course not. The Lusutania is still sunk, the Germans still make clumsy attempts to bomb British civilians presumably, and crucially, unrestricted submarine warfare is still resumed and the Zimmerman telegram still sent.
 
The events are so close together they are really hard to separate.
Well, I certainly think that getting Germany to invade Belgium without committing atrocities would be harder than simply having it go east first, but the OP specifically asked about a Germany that invaded Belgium without committing war crimes.
As I said the invasion of Belgium itself was an 'outrage'.
A misdeed? Perhaps. One that outweighs suspected state-sponsorship of terrorism? No. One America need be concerned with? No.
My contention is that this, along with the myriad of other reasons, was part of why the US favoured the Entente.
Well the Anglophilia and Francophilia would certainly still be there.
The Lusutania is still sunk, the Germans still make clumsy attempts to bomb British civilians presumably, and crucially, unrestricted submarine warfare is still resumed and the Zimmerman telegram still sent.
That's assuming that the USA still backs the Entente and that a Germany that didn't commit war crimes in Belgium would still pursue unrestricted submarine warfare and send the Zimmermann telegram. None of those things are certain.
 
Rubbish. Invading another country with a plausible pretext perhaps wasn't a taboo, but doing it with absolutely no pretext and to a country whose neutrality you had specifically guaranteed, certainly was.
If it was always alright, then Cavour, Bismarck, Schwarzenberg and Gorchakov are all bigger fools than I thought for going out their way to make war only when a pretext was available.
The reason Belgium was so electrifying to public opinion was the fact that Germany so clearly had no justification for the action, and had specifically pledged to defend the nations neutrality.
On the other hand, the Entente went and did a similar thing to Greece when it tried to enforce its neutrality. Vaguer principles like neutrality were kinda something whose violation only mattered if it was done by the enemy. German atrocities were the main difference, and they were the primary basis for Entente outrage. Invading Belgium was bad, but what was done in Belgium was what was more on people's minds. If the Germans had gone through Belgium without committing atrocities against civilians, your average Briton or American wouldn't really have cared.
 
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marathag

Banned
On the other hand, the Entente went and did a similar thing to Greece when it tried to enforce its neutrality.
Two rules

1. Let the other guy be seen as the bad guy.

2. Helps if the other guy is actually committing atrocities, that you can amplify with Propaganda, if....

3. make sure you control most of the World's Communication cables, so only your narrative gets out to Neutral
Nations
 
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