AHC: Studebaker Survives the 1960s

[Driftless]

The AMC Modern I-6 was rather efficient for the era. Perhaps it and the I-4 could be designed more for economical operation and reliability, instead of the I-6 being used as a budget performance engine. If someone wanted performance they would probably purchase a V-8 of some kind.

There could be a different focus for the engine families, the V-8 designs prioritizing power and the I-6 and I-4 prioritizing economical operation.

I confess to owning a 1975 AMC Pacer Hatchback with a 258 c.i.d I-6. As I remember it wasn't too bad on economy for the era(23-25mpg???? highway), but not exactly a performance car either.... People used to make fun of the car - rolling greenhouse, etc, but I really liked it.

 

[Delta Force]

I confess to owning a 1975 AMC Pacer Hatchback with a 258 c.i.d I-6. As I remember it wasn't too bad on economy for the era(23-25mpg???? highway), but not exactly a performance car either.... People used to make fun of the car - rolling greenhouse, etc, but I really liked it.

Wikipedia says it was revised to give higher fuel efficiency in 1976, going from 24 mpg to 30 mpg. I don't know what kind of performance drop that might have entailed though. 1975 is when emissions standards went into force in the United States, usually resulting in the adoption of a catalytic converter and lower octane unleaded fuels (leaded fuels would destroy the converter), leading to reduced compression ratios and lower performance.

I read that some engines met the standards without using converters, but they were probably small and/or low performance.

 

[Just Leo]

I've noticed that nobody mentioned the Grand Turismo Hawk, my favorite Studebaker, and this lack is possibly what really killed the company. Buyers bought Thunderbirds instead. The ad company that worked the VW contract might have helped to foment a market. What if Bullitt had driven a Hawk instead of a Mustang?

 

[Driftless]

I've noticed that nobody mentioned the Grand Turismo Hawk, my favorite Studebaker, and this lack is possibly what really killed the company. Buyers bought Thunderbirds instead. The ad company that worked the VW contract might have helped to foment a market. What if Bullitt had driven a Hawk instead of a Mustang?

A "Bullitized" version of the GT Hawk?

 

[Driftless]

4x4 Pickups - SUV's?

Studebaker also had a good reputation for tough "military grade" trucks going back to WW2. Also, they did create comparatively small numbers of pickup trucks.

Another path, IF they could have played through to the 1970's, would have been offering 4x4 pickups or Suburban style SUV's with some amenities, just as the popularity of off-road vehicles was picking up. Maybe even offer a smaller version to compete with the Jeep CJ series or the old small Ford Broncos? (I had one of those too.... Most fun vehicle I've owned.)

 

[Just Leo]

A "Bullitized" version of the GT Hawk?

Something very much like the Shelby Cobra Hawk.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

From the brief read of the wiki article there are a number of issues that need to be addressed, but the key one that jumps out at me is that their cost structure was too high.

Essentially they need to get the right people in place to identify their shortcomings and be able to implements the appropriate changes. So off the top of my head improve productivity and quality control for their workforce, this could be achieved by changing the capital to employee mix. Move from their South Bend plant to a smaller plant that enables centralisation and just in time inventory management. Attempt to leverage off their suppliers by driving greater cost efficiencies and then passing onto the consumer. Changing their market niche or segment, i.e. aim at the prestige market.

Unless anyone has financials in which case I can tailor my responses more accurately.

 

[Delta Force]

I've noticed that nobody mentioned the Grand Turismo Hawk, my favorite Studebaker, and this lack is possibly what really killed the company. Buyers bought Thunderbirds instead. The ad company that worked the VW contract might have helped to foment a market. What if Bullitt had driven a Hawk instead of a Mustang?

Studebaker didn't have a big-block V-8, and their small block was an aging design. They needed a new V-8 line to compete with the engines being produced by Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors.

I have an earlier post on what the new engine lineup could have looked like if they took the AMC lineup and had various options for carburetors, fuel injectors, and superchargers.

Studebaker also had a good reputation for tough "military grade" trucks going back to WW2. Also, they did create comparatively small numbers of pickup trucks.

Another path, IF they could have played through to the 1970's, would have been offering 4x4 pickups or Suburban style SUV's with some amenities, just as the popularity of off-road vehicles was picking up. Maybe even offer a smaller version to compete with the Jeep CJ series or the old small Ford Broncos? (I had one of those too.... Most fun vehicle I've owned.)

I'm considering Studebaker being something akin to the largest part of a larger AMC, which also includes Jeep and a surviving Packard (Studebaker purchased Packard but eventually abandoned the brand). In that case, Jeep historically produced the Wagoneer, which was considered to be more luxurious than other early SUVs. Perhaps instead of being the budget line as I had in the earlier lineup, Jeep could have more of an industrial, heavy duty, off-roading type feel to it.

If Studebaker participates in racing and other demonstrations of vehicles, Rambler could be oriented more towards circuit racing and drag racing to show off performance, and Jeep could be oriented more towards off-road, endurance, and rally races to showcase endurance.

The lineup would thus look something like this:

American Motor Company (for lack of a better name)
-- Packard: Luxury vehicles. Flagship model is the Excellence.
-- Studebaker: High end and performance division. The Ambassador is the flagship sedan for the line. The flagship performance model is the Avanti, which competes with the Chevrolet Corvette.
-- Rambler: A performance oriented division that focuses on pony cars and other vehicles that would appeal to young people. The flagship model is the Rebel, which competes with the Chevrolet Camaro, Ford Mustang, etc.
-- Jeep: Military sales, industrial/farm equipment, and off-roading. The flagship civilian car model is the Civilian Jeep. The flagship SUV is the Wagoneer.
-- Hudson: The mid-tier division. Flagship model is the Hornet.
-- Nash: Produces affordable entry level vehicles. Flagship model is the Lark.

Something very much like the Shelby Cobra Hawk.

Studebaker seems to have had a strong tuning division of its own. Perhaps they could invite a racer akin to Shelby over to help lead Rambler, or work with an independent company to add clout?

From the brief read of the wiki article there are a number of issues that need to be addressed, but the key one that jumps out at me is that their cost structure was too high.

Essentially they need to get the right people in place to identify their shortcomings and be able to implements the appropriate changes. So off the top of my head improve productivity and quality control for their workforce, this could be achieved by changing the capital to employee mix. Move from their South Bend plant to a smaller plant that enables centralisation and just in time inventory management. Attempt to leverage off their suppliers by driving greater cost efficiencies and then passing onto the consumer. Changing their market niche or segment, i.e. aim at the prestige market.

Unless anyone has financials in which case I can tailor my responses more accurately.

Some consolidation would definitely be in order. However, I'm not sure how it would work out with essentially the Super AMC that would be created. The inclusion of Packard, Studebaker, and Jeep complicates things.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Perhaps the company lineup could be like this?

American Motor Company (for lack of a better name)
-- Packard: Luxury vehicles. Flagship model is the Excellence.
-- Studebaker: High end and performance division. The Ambassador is the flagship sedan for the line. The flagship performance model is the Avanti, which competes with the Chevrolet Corvette.
-- Rambler: A performance oriented division that focuses on pony cars and other vehicles that would appeal to young people. The flagship model is the Rebel, which competes with the Chevrolet Camaro, Ford Mustang, etc.
-- Hudson: The mid-tier division. Flagship model is the Hornet.
-- Nash: Produces affordable entry level vehicles. Flagship model is the Lark.
-- Jeep: Military sales, trucks, simple cars and off-road vehicles, and exports. Flagship civilian car model is the Civilian Jeep.

According to Wikipedia, the combined company would have had sales of 5,276,954 in the 1950s, around 9.11% of the American automobile market.

Though not knowledgeable on America's smaller carmakers assuming Studebaker ended up becoming part of a ATL "AMC", would it have been possible for the proposed Porsche-Studebaker prototypes such as the 4-door Type 542 with a 3054cc V6 or a 2-door Type 633 with a 2-litre Flat-4) to have reached production under the Nash badge?

Also given its previous history in trucks / 4x4s would it have been possible to spawn a Studebaker equivalent of a Range Rover above Jeep kind of similar to how the Monteverdi Safari was spawned from an International Harvester Scout?

It might also be worth considering rationalizing some brands with Rambler and Hudson marques eventually replaced with an "AMC" marque, while Nash remains the entry-level "American Volkswagen" brand beneath "AMC".

http://www.studebaker-info.org/studeporsche/stude-porsche08.html

http://dedeporsche.com/2012/11/03/p...he-drawing-board-as-porsche-project-type-542/

 

[Driftless]

(snip)
I'm considering Studebaker being something akin to the largest part of a larger AMC, which also includes Jeep and a surviving Packard (Studebaker purchased Packard but eventually abandoned the brand). In that case, Jeep historically produced the Wagoneer, which was considered to be more luxurious than other early SUVs. Perhaps instead of being the budget line as I had in the earlier lineup, Jeep could have more of an industrial, heavy duty, off-roading type feel to it.

If Studebaker participates in racing and other demonstrations of vehicles, Rambler could be oriented more towards circuit racing and drag racing to show off performance, and Jeep could be oriented more towards off-road, endurance, and rally races to showcase endurance.

Studebaker seems to have had a strong tuning division of its own. Perhaps they could invite a racer akin to Shelby over to help lead Rambler, or work with an independent company to add clout?

Some consolidation would definitely be in order. However, I'm not sure how it would work out with essentially the Super AMC that would be created. The inclusion of Packard, Studebaker, and Jeep complicates things.

Also given its previous history in trucks / 4x4s would it have been possible to spawn a Studebaker equivalent of a Range Rover above Jeep kind of similar to how the Monteverdi Safari was spawned from an International Harvester Scout?

http://www.studebaker-info.org/studeporsche/stude-porsche08.html

http://dedeporsche.com/2012/11/03/p...he-drawing-board-as-porsche-project-type-542/

Racing is an expensive avenue for showing off your machines, but it also shows that you are looking for performance improvement and it builds a following. Get the Studebaker off-road variants into big time races like the Baja, or the Paris-Dakar (especially if you are aiming at the high end Range Rover folks). Late 60's, early 70's, get a driver like Walker Evans, who was an off-road racing legend for the era.

*edit* nice find on the Porsche connections!

 

[Delta Force]

It looks like Studebaker had relationships with quite a few companies over the years. I think Porsche might be one of the more interesting ones, because it designed so many vehicles. One of the criticisms of the Porsche vehicles designed and tested by Studebaker was that they were too curvy and that Americans preferred boxy cars. However, more curvy designs could help Studebaker stand out in an era of boxy cars, especially as a smaller producer.

What if Studebaker had gone along with more European/Japanese styling influences relative to the Big Three? Do you think styling like this could work in the 1950s and 1960s?

Studebaker sedans could resemble this one-off car built by a California couchworks sometime in the 1960s.

Rambler muscle cars could feature styling similar to the Datsun/Nissan 240Z.

Coincidentally, the design is quite similar to the 1964 Ferrari 275.

Nash could use the historical Porsche-Studebaker Type 542 design.

 

[Driftless]

The "stretch" Porsche is interesting. The purists heads are probably exploding at this point, but it might have caught on. Fold in a Porsche take on the Avanti, or a VW/Porsche take on the Lark, then you might have caught lightning in a bottle.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

It looks like Studebaker had relationships with quite a few companies over the years. I think Porsche might be one of the more interesting ones, because it designed so many vehicles. One of the criticisms of the Porsche vehicles designed and tested by Studebaker was that they were too curvy and that Americans preferred boxy cars. However, more curvy designs could help Studebaker stand out in an era of boxy cars, especially as a smaller producer.

What if Studebaker had gone along with more European/Japanese styling influences relative to the Big Three? Do you think styling like this could work in the 1950s and 1960s?

....

Suppose that Studebaker road-cars (aside from the 4x4s) could essentially build V6/V8 front-engined RWD Porsche-derived/developed cars, Nash would become an entry-level American version of Volkswagen (crossed with Subaru from the 1970s) via Porsche-derived/developed cars though more practical compared to the Beetle.

Could a version of the OTL Rambler American-based IKA-Renault Torino have been sold in the US market leading to an earlier ATL “AMC” involvement with Renault?

Apparently Renault planned a replacement for the Torino called the Renault R40 during the early 1970s that was abandoned after the President of IKA-Renault, the project's only defender died in a plane crash in 1973, it was also during that period when the PRV V6 (originally a V8) engine was under development and on verge of being finalized (the V8 version killed off by the 1973 fuel crisis).

Perhaps the PRV V8 could live on in the US powering Studebakers as part of an ATL "AMC"?

Apart from Porsche and Mercedes-Benz, what other carmakers were Studebaker involved with?

http://renaultconcepts.online.fr/prototypes/r40.htm (French)

 

[Delta Force]

Suppose that Studebaker road-cars (aside from the 4x4s) could essentially build V6/V8 front-engined RWD Porsche-derived/developed cars, Nash would become an entry-level American version of Volkswagen (crossed with Subaru from the 1970s) via Porsche-derived/developed cars though more practical compared to the Beetle.

Could a version of the OTL Rambler American-based IKA-Renault Torino have been sold in the US market leading to an earlier ATL “AMC” involvement with Renault?

Apparently Renault planned a replacement for the Torino called the Renault R40 during the early 1970s that was abandoned after the President of IKA-Renault, the project's only defender died in a plane crash in 1973, it was also during that period when the PRV V6 (originally a V8) engine was under development and on verge of being finalized (the V8 version killed off by the 1973 fuel crisis).

Perhaps the PRV V8 could live on in the US powering Studebakers as part of an ATL "AMC"?

Apart from Porsche and Mercedes-Benz, what other carmakers were Studebaker involved with?

http://renaultconcepts.online.fr/prototypes/r40.htm (French)

I don't know if Renault connection would necessarily develop. Historically Studebaker was more involved with German firms. At one point it considered possibly becoming the American importer of the Volkswagen Beetle, but decided not to pursue that. Then there was the Porsche relationship, with Studebaker paying $500,000 for consulting work, blueprints, mockups, and prototypes (enough for Porsche to build itself a factory). However, Studebaker wasn't able to spend the $15 million to $20 million required to put the Porsche V-6 into production.

Studebaker then historically became the American importer for Mercedes-Benz, Auto Union, and DKW. In the 1960s Studebaker also considered entering into an arrangement with Toyota or Nissan room become their distributor, but the it ook too long to decide and both companies backed out.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I don't know if Renault connection would necessarily develop. Historically Studebaker was more involved with German firms. At one point it considered possibly becoming the American importer of the Volkswagen Beetle, but decided not to pursue that. Then there was the Porsche relationship, with Studebaker paying $500,000 for consulting work, blueprints, mockups, and prototypes (enough for Porsche to build itself a factory). However, Studebaker wasn't able to spend the $15 million to $20 million required to put the Porsche V-6 into production.

Studebaker then historically became the American importer for Mercedes-Benz, Auto Union, and DKW. In the 1960s Studebaker also considered entering into an arrangement with Toyota or Nissan room become their distributor, but the it ook too long to decide and both companies backed out.

Ok going back to Mercedes-Benz for a second, what-if Studebaker / ATL "AMC" continuing its involvement with German carmakers got hold of a stillborn entry-level Mercedes-Benz project as a basis for a compact to replace the Porsche-developed Type 633 or some other lower-end car in the "AMC" Group?

The stillborn prototype below is from the Mercedes-Benz W118 / W119 project after Mercedes-Benz acquired Auto Union in 1958 (lasting until 1964), in the OTL it was supposed to be powered by a 1.7 4-cylinder while an Auto Union / DKW model would be powered by 2-stroke engines though only the latter reached production as the DKW F102.

The engine of the Mercedes-Benz W118 / W119 project meanwhile would essentially be used (in 1.5-1.8 form) for the Audi F103 from 1965-1972, when Auto Union came under Volkswagen ownership ultimately creating the first Post-WW2 Audi.

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/.../attachment/775693_1418161_5352_3992_vs62395/

 

[Paul V McNutt]

IIRC Studebaker remained in business as a parts supplier

They sold out and then came a series of buy outs. wWhatever company produces Champion spark plugs is the descendent of Studebaker.

 

[bobinleipsic]

I wonder how Studebaker would have fared in NASCAR? That's assuming survival into the 1970's and later . . .

bobinleipsic

 

[marathag]

I confess to owning a 1975 AMC Pacer Hatchback with a 258 c.i.d I-6. As I remember it wasn't too bad on economy for the era(23-25mpg???? highway), but not exactly a performance car either.... People used to make fun of the car - rolling greenhouse, etc, but I really liked it.

The problem with the Pacer was it was heavy for its size, as it really was just a scaled down Matador sedan

resulting in a two door greenhouse.

Same engine, same transmission, same rear axle even.
That's why it was so wide

The only thing really new was rack and pinion steering, but since it used so many AMC components, it was relatively trouble free, reliability wise vs the early Big 3 compacts

AMC just didn't have the money to develop a new aluminum I4 that could have been transverse mounted to make a lighter FWD car, it was wide enough, it would have been easy.

The Pacer was big enough under the hood that people put big block GM 455 in them for bracket racing, even the AMC 401 wasn't that tight a fit.

 

[marathag]

Rather than a WI of Studebaker surviving, may have some thought on there never being a Studebaker/Packard merger at all in 1954.

It destroyed both companies within the decade, though without it, Packard may have lasted longer as a Marque.

Packard was a leaky ship in 1954. Studebaker was sinking fast.

 

[marathag]

I don't know how much performance Studebaker lost by using the older V-8 design, but it certainly seems it could have done some very interesting things with a more modern design given what it did with the older one.

Got a Stude 289 out in a pole building.

It's huge chunk of cast iron, nearly as large as a Ford 460.

It's gargantuan compared to the Ford 289 small block