AHC: Make Hati a Success Story

[iddt3]

What it says on the tin. I don't know if there's a nation in the Americas that has had a worse run of terrible luck, incompetent leaders, and foreign meddling. The goal is not a Utopia, but your Hati should have:

• Stable Government and Succession
• A diversified and growing economy
• Inequality kept to a reasonable level
• No ongoing brain drain

Keeping all of Hispanola is optional, but at the very least they need decent relations with the DR.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Any restrictions on PoD?

 

[PolishMagnet]

Stop the US from sabotaging the living hell out of them.

 

[Vinization]

The few remaining French troops and civilians aren't massacred in 1804, but are instead allowed (or forced) to return to Europe. Thus, while Haiti is still hated by most of its white and slave-owning neighbors, it's not as much of a pariah as IOTL.

Internal stability is another necessary ingredient, as well as an alternative to sugar. Could coffee and indigo sufice?

 

[durante]

Not having to pay compensation to France is a good start.

 

[iddt3]

Any restrictions on PoD?

Let's say post 1791 - you're locked into a revolution of some sort.

The few remaining French troops and civilians aren't massacred in 1804, but are instead allowed (or forced) to return to Europe. Thus, while Haiti is still hated by most of its white and slave-owning neighbors, it's not as much of a pariah as IOTL.

Internal stability is another necessary ingredient, as well as an alternative to sugar. Could coffee and indigo sufice?

That works at the margins, but fundamentally it's going to require forcing the ex-slaves back onto the plantations, no? And not making relations worse isn't the same as positive relations.

What if Toussaint Louverture politics a bit better, and Napoleon doesn't attempt the counter-invasion in the first place? Keeping Hati as a nominal part of France till the end of the Napoleonic wars makes them less of an open target, and gives them a generation to recover.

Alternatively, instead of trying to recreate a sugar empire, Napoleon could instead decide to burn everyone else's down, and support Toussaint in a crusade against slavery in the Caribbean. A properly supported Hatian Army would be a nightmare for the other colonial powers to deal with.

 

[Thoresby]

The problem is that Haiti is a Caribbean island. That means it's small, pre AC has a challenging climate and has a limited suite of natural resources. You just can't get a rich, diversified economy and without a healthy economy it's very difficult to have no brain drain, low inequality, stable government etc.

There's a reason that prior to the Tourism and Tax Evasion booms of the 20th Century all the Caribbean islands were poor and it wasn't just racism.

 

[funnyhat]

The few remaining French troops and civilians aren't massacred in 1804, but are instead allowed (or forced) to return to Europe. Thus, while Haiti is still hated by most of its white and slave-owning neighbors, it's not as much of a pariah as IOTL.

I don’t think this would make that much of a difference. For one, most of the whites IOTL did leave on their own (it was the ~5000 who tried to stay that were massacred). Even with no massacres, the result is still a country that is closed off to white settlement, which will not be popular to Europeans or Americans.

And there is still the fundamental problem that all the other islands had slavery, and their rulers feared the example of Haïti.

The timing of Haitian independence is very tough.

 

[Vinization]

I don’t think this would make that much of a difference. For one, most of the whites IOTL did leave on their own (it was the ~5000 who tried to stay that were massacred). Even with no massacres, the result is still a country that is closed off to white settlement, which will not be popular to Europeans or Americans.

And there is still the fundamental problem that all the other islands had slavery, and their rulers feared the example of Haïti.

The timing of Haitian independence is very tough.

Still, it didn't do them any favors.

Another big problem, along with chronic instability, was the indemnity they were forced to pay by the French for decades. Going to war with them instead may have been a better idea, it's not like they'd be able to advance into the mountains, and all Haiti would've needed to do was wait for yellow fever to do its work.

 

[iddt3]

Still, it didn't do them any favors.

Another big problem, along with chronic instability, was the indemnity they were forced to pay by the French for decades. Going to war with them instead may have been a better idea, it's not like they'd be able to advance into the mountains, and all Haiti would've needed to do was wait for yellow fever to do its work.

I think by the point of the second French invasion things are much harder. It's probably still possible to get a good outcome, but Hati has already suffered a lot of damage and become a Pariah.

And there is still the fundamental problem that all the other islands had slavery, and their rulers feared the example of Haïti.

The timing of Haitian independence is very tough.

So one big missed opportunity is to lean in - you're already going to be a pariah to slave owners, and you've got a large, highly motivated army resistant to Yellow Fever. If Napoleon or the later Republic had backed it, that has the potential to take over much of the Carribean.

 

[Slime_blob]

Not having to pay compensation to France is a good start.

That might be a good start, but as long as they rebuild their plantation economy and avoid the land reform and it's collapse basically maintain and hopefully gradually increase the expoet of cash crops as soon as time passes. Once that is achieved, avoid military coups and dictatorships, let the civilian government do there job but have them do it fine hopefully they have at the very least a mediumly corrupt half competent government. It's now alot better than otl. Instead of the military, invest in education infrastructure social services agriculture subsidies to other sectors and other productive stuff.

Imo they can even pay that reparation/compensation back as they have a steady source of cash, their cash cow plantation economy not being lost ittl. Problem is that otl Petion and Boyer like seized the mulatto plantation and land give it to the peasantry. Resulting into them losing their cash cow

 

[Slime_blob]

Inequality kept to a reasonable level

Is inequality really that bad? Technically it's gonna increase so will the incomes and economy and standard of living etc rise imo. As the traditional elite and wealthy class would pass down generational wearlh to their descendants.

 

[Slime_blob]

What if Toussaint Louverture politics a bit better, and Napoleon doesn't attempt the counter-invasion in the first place? Keeping Hati as a nominal part of France till the end of the Napoleonic wars makes them less of an open target, and gives them a generation to recover.

He likes dictatorships, wants Haiti under his military dictatorship, I think Vincent Oge/Andre Rigaud/Julien Raymond/Jean Pierre Boyer might do better. I'm hoping for Andre Rigaud and Boyer bc they fought a civil war with Toussaint as they believe they should establish a republic instead. With alot less influence from the army thats gonna help Haiti alot

 

[Slime_blob]

If you dont know iirc Haiti is spending up to 90% of its budget on defense which is literally high. That is during the 1890s peacetime iirc, during their so called Latin American model of growth was followed by many nations. Have da money invested on the economy, social services, education, infrastructure or the repayment of debt and reparations instead. That would prove alot better imo

 

[durante]

Is inequality really that bad? Technically it's gonna increase so will the incomes and economy and standard of living etc rise imo. As the traditional elite and wealthy class would pass down generational wearlh to their descendants.

Yes, it is that bad. It is directly correlated to increased crime and decreased health and educational outcomes (for the population as a whole) among a whole host of other social issues.

Exposing the impact of social inequality

Why are rich, developed countries still affected by a range of health and social problems?

www.york.ac.uk

Economic Inequity is a Health Issue — Washington Physicians for Social Responsibility

www.wpsr.org

List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for paying "back" France "compensation", the former slavers can go stuff themselves. I am morally opposed to paying back France. If anything, it should be the other way round.

 

[M79]

After Haiti annexes the Dominican Republic set up further expeditions into Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Central America. Florida is colonized with Haitian outposts as far north as Cedar Key and northern Cape Canaveral as further French and Spanish islands are 'liberated'. By 1848 much of the Caribbean is in Haitian hands and the United States, fresh off a major victory against Mexico, begins to eye the islands for conquest.

 

[Thoresby]

So one big missed opportunity is to lean in - you're already going to be a pariah to slave owners, and you've got a large, highly motivated army resistant to Yellow Fever. If Napoleon or the later Republic had backed it, that has the potential to take over much of the Carribean.

After Haiti annexes the Dominican Republic set up further expeditions into Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Central America. Florida is colonized with Haitian outposts as far north as Cedar Key and northern Cape Canaveral as further French and Spanish islands are 'liberated'. By 1848 much of the Caribbean is in Haitian hands and the United States, fresh off a major victory against Mexico, begins to eye the islands for conquest.

How exactly are they meant to take over anything past Hispaniola. They have an army but no navy and no way to obtain one. The strength of the RN and Spanish Navy in the theatre means any attempt to launch any amphibious adventures will simply result in a lot of drowned Haitians.

 

[iddt3]

How exactly are they meant to take over anything past Hispaniola. They have an army but no navy and no way to obtain one. The strength of the RN and Spanish Navy in the theatre means any attempt to launch any amphibious adventures will simply result in a lot of drowned Haitians.

Quoting myself
"If Napoleon or the later Republic had backed it"

France has a navy and a bunch of colonial rivals and until Napoleon invaded Haiti was still nominally part of France.

 

[M79]

How exactly are they meant to take over anything past Hispaniola. They have an army but no navy and no way to obtain one. The strength of the RN and Spanish Navy in the theatre means any attempt to launch any amphibious adventures will simply result in a lot of drowned Haitians.

Use the Cacos for filibustering in various regions by insertion as small groups until sufficient force exists to take over a region. Start with Puerto Rico and Cuba,...

 

[Watermelon]

Stop the US from sabotaging the living hell out of them.

what did the americans do?