AHC: Have the Whites winning the Russian Civil War result in something far worse than the Soviet Union

While there is some dispute around Makhno's personal anti-Semitism, you can't deny that the Anarchists had a significant number of anti-Semites within their ranks. According to the book Pogroms: Anti-Jewish Violence in Modern Russian History, "the anarchist leader could not or did not impose discipline on his soldiers. In the name of 'class struggle' his troops with particular enthusiasm robbed Jews of whatever they had" (I remember that quote from a book that I read a while back, and I looked it up in order to ascertain that it was indeed from that book). So, while Makhno himself may not have been that big of an anti-Semite, there is no doubt that an Anarchist Russia would have seen a very large number of pogroms against the "capitalist Jews" who Makhno's men (like many Ukrainians at the time) saw to be "the enemy of the Motherland".
To be fair a lot of them were illiterate peasants


Whose life was put down by a lot of Mennonites and others

You kind of can't really blame them for being a lot more superstitious

If literally can't read how else are you going to communicate then by word of mouth
 
I’m not so certain on the lack of a Nazi party or similar far right group. A russian civil war still implies the presence of a powerful Bolshevik force, and if we’re looking at a nasty bunch to come out on top of the Whites, that probably means the civil war vicious enough to get them on top, whilst being too violent a struggle to discredit Communism....

also, what’s happening regarding Brest-Litovsk? Presumably the Allies would award it straight to White Russia?
As Tony Cliff demonstrated, if Stalin’s brutality and failure to support popular revolutionary and/or anti-fascist movements had not tarnished the reputation of Marxism amongst Europe’s strongly socialist working classes, there might become greater potential for a future revolution in a country more advanced than Russia. If Brest-Litovsk were awarded to White Russia, then German feelings of revenge would remain strong, which would make a Second World War quite possible as the disillusionment with the peace treaties in Italy and Japan would remain. Without the Communist regime, though, Britain and France would have come to Russia’s aid much more rapidly, probably as soon as Germany or Italy attempted to remilitarise.

Absence of appeasement would have prevented a Second World War, unless the British and French working classes hated the Russian regime enough that they would accept its defeat. This is not impossible if the Russian regime was as bad as this post is suggesting – after all, it was opposition to the Tsar that led the working-class SPD to support World War One. However, in a no-appeasement 1930s Germany and Italy would have been leery of going to war even if they resented the peace treaties vehemently. They could easily have been defeated quickly with few losses for Britain and France.
Showdown is preordained because Germany has such a strong militarist tradition, the treaty of versailles was so humiliating and this can only end in a general european war. When this happens, Britain will cut Germany off from the world market to starve them into submission just like WW1.
That is a critical issue. If there were no or a weaker Great Depression – which many historians say is likely if the Communist Party had been defeated in Russia – the question becomes whether this militarism would have still built up and what form it would have taken, or if the militaristic traditions could have weakened as Germany modernised?
 
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That is a critical issue. If there were no or a weaker Great Depression – which many historians say is likely if the Communist Party had been defeated in Russia – the question becomes whether this militarism would have still built up and what form it would have taken, or if the militaristic traditions could have weakened as Germany modernised?
So... 'Democratic' Weimar Germany was already doing most of the persecution (to the Roma) recieved history associates with the pre-war Nazis. Germany was not modernising and the Nazis were not so different from the major players in German politics before they came to power as tends to be made out. Others would have done much of what the Nazis did.
 
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(Really, if I I sat you down in 1910 and said "in thirty years, a European nation is going to carry out a horrific act of mass murder against Europe's Jewish population", you'd probably say 'those damn Tsars and their Cossacks', or maybe France if you were feeling contrarian...)
A bit late, but is that a quote from Richard Evans?
 
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Could a "Whites result in something far worse" happen because a paralyzed White coalition isn't able to make Russia industrialize fast enough to hold off Nazi Germany (Who would kill everything that moved and some things that didn't?)
 
Worse for who? That's the key. The Reds winning the Russian civil war was absolutely awful for quite a few millions of people. The Whites would have to work REALLY hard to equal their body count, especially if you credit the Reds winning with creating the conditions where WWII and Nazis were ripe. So they probably can't compete just in raw numbers of democide. But they MIGHT be able to compete in some narrow categories of slaughter---particularly if the Russian civil war was a really close run thing where they narrowly won, it freaked out the Western powers as much as OTL (excepting not having a USSR at the end of it) creating the conditions in Germany for Nazis like OTL.

In this alternate rerun of history, the White Russians decide to pick a scapegoat group---somebody to blame everything on so they don't have to mass execute everyone who'd supported the Reds. Maybe they pick the same group that the Nazis did OTL.

Result is a WW2 with Germany and Russia considerably more friendly towards one another, perhaps dividing spheres of influence between them. Aggregate democide between the two is far lower that OTL, but in whoever is tapped as the designated scapegoats (probably Jews) far worse. Is that worse than OTL? Lenin would put it as that depends on whether you're the Who or the Whom.
 

kham_coc

Banned
Worse for who? That's the key. The Reds winning the Russian civil war was absolutely awful for quite a few millions of people. The Whites would have to work REALLY hard to equal their body count, especially if you credit the Reds winning with creating the conditions where WWII and Nazis were ripe. So they probably can't compete just in raw numbers of democide. But they MIGHT be able to compete in some narrow categories of slaughter---particularly if the Russian civil war was a really close run thing where they narrowly won, it freaked out the Western powers as much as OTL (excepting not having a USSR at the end of it) creating the conditions in Germany for Nazis like OTL.

In this alternate rerun of history, the White Russians decide to pick a scapegoat group---somebody to blame everything on so they don't have to mass execute everyone who'd supported the Reds. Maybe they pick the same group that the Nazis did OTL.

Result is a WW2 with Germany and Russia considerably more friendly towards one another, perhaps dividing spheres of influence between them. Aggregate democide between the two is far lower that OTL, but in whoever is tapped as the designated scapegoats (probably Jews) far worse. Is that worse than OTL? Lenin would put it as that depends on whether you're the Who or the Whom.
I suppose a Nazi russia could be a lot more liberal with it's enemies list than the Nazis - Russia has a lot of minorities other than Jews, anyone not Russian and orthodox basically.
 
So... 'Democratic' Weimar Germany was already doing most of the persecution (to the Roma) recieved history associates with the pre-war Nazis. Germany was not modernising and the Nazis were not so different from the major players in German politics before they came to power as tends to be made out. Others would have done much of what the Nazis did.
Of course not! Nevertheless, there were always the conditions for instability of democracy in Germany, as Dietrich Rüschemayer showed back in his 1992 Capitalist Development and Democracy. Unless democracy survived until the (1950s and 1960s) “Green Revolution” would have vastly weakened the power of the Junkers, there was always the risk of a democratic collapse in Germany, and possibly even without a Great Depression. Resentment from the peace treaties within the middle and ruling classes of Germany was always going to be extremely intense.

A highly authoritarian and brutal White regime in Russia could easily make middle and ruling class German resentment of Versailles worse than it was. How the Western ruling classes would react to such a conflict I do not know. They would fear such a war leading, as Tony Cliff said it would without a destructive Stalinist regime in power in Russia, to much stronger potential for a workers’ revolution to create a society without bosses and that society spreading to the sympathetic working classes of the Western Allies. However, at the same time the Western Allies’ ruling classes would sense opportunities to expand their empires from such a conflict, and might have been willing to ally with a fascist-type Russia as in the real World War Two.
 
Worse for who?
For starters the 99% in Western Europe and America. What incentive is there for the development of a welfare state to appease the masses without the threat of Communism?

Oh how about the rest of the world? No USSR weapons or diplomatic support to anti colonial movements. Colonialism never ends. In 2021 the British continue to say "Whatever happens we have got the maxim gun fuel air bomb and they have not." Most of Africa in the 2020's makes the Belgian Congo look tame.

No USSR support for the KMT, China gets a conference like the 1884-5 one for Africa. China is divided and colonised permanently (with 'open door policy' just like the Belgian Congo.)

When the Vietnamese get lippy with the French, there is no Nuclear Power supporting them. So the French just Nuke Hanoi to make an example. Why not?

Who needs the Nazis when you have colonialism that never ends and just gets more and more oppressive as the armaments gap between coloniser and colonised expands.

White Victory is the ultimate dystopia. This isn't a challenge. In the words of Walter Benjamin:

Marx says that revolutions are the locomotives of world history. But the situation may be quite different. Perhaps revolutions are not the train ride, but the human race grabbing for the emergency brake.
 
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Deleted member 147978

Perhaps have White Russia dissolved into rampant Warlordism just like China after the collapse of the Qing?
 
Just have a leader take over who is very brutal, I think Denikin is most likely leader but he will likely not be worse than Hitler however there is a chance Krasnov (he praised totalitarianism and fantasised about a future Russia where there were public floggings of anyone against the tsar and there is no freedom of speech, he even called it totalitarian) can lead the southern army instead, there were also people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Diterikhs who had potential to be leader (this guy claimed murder of royal family was jewish ritual sacrifice and was radically orthodox and believed he was on crusade against jewish communism, but they were not at the head of the major fronts. You can also have Kornilov not die and come to run Southern army rather than Denikin, he is quoted as saying "Set fire to half the country and shed the blood of three-quarters of all Russians."

Also after the death of a likely dictator like Denikin a new dictator must be chosen, they will likely be chosen from prominent administers and generals and there would be different factions just as there was in Soviet Union, having extremists who want to russify all minorities and discriminate against all non Orthodox religion, it is easy to imagine someone as paranoid as Stalin or as extreme as Hitler coming from this struggle. Or if there is an economic problem the dictator could blame it on jews and you might see army members grow to dislike government for being lenient on "internal enemies" and so the leader would persecute minorities more.
 
For starters the 99% in Western Europe and America. What incentive is there for the development of a welfare state to appease the masses without the threat of Communism?

Oh how about the rest of the world? No USSR weapons or diplomatic support to anti colonial movements. Colonialism never ends. In 2021 the British continue to say "Whatever happens we have got the maxim gun fuel air bomb and they have not." Most of Africa in the 2020s makes the Belgian Congo look tame.
That is a quite obvious and likely possibility, at least if Europe is able to weaken its working classes’ class consciousness. Would the European ruling classes then try to do in the 1920s what the world’s ruling classes did from the late 1970s – shift virtually all manufacturing out of the Western world to low-wage authoritarian regimes and thereby eliminate the possibility of genuine democracy, which as Jacobin Magazine have pointed out many times is dependent almost entirely on the unity of the non-elite against the rich. To do this, as Sebastian Lamb noted here, the western ruling classes would have a powerful tool in racism, as Lamb illustrates dramatically for the United States, where he shows that white workers have been virtually completely tied to the ruling class throughout American history. If Lamb be correct, then if the colonial powers in Europe could ally their home working classes with the rulers against the nonwhite populations of the colonies, they would permanently eliminate the threat of independent socialist parties either producing revolution or the compromise of a welfare state.

How easy this would be is unclear: in the early twentieth century, British textile workers led campaigns to exclude Indians and India from the industry, but such rules could never have been permanent unless wages in the colonial powers stagnate. Entrenching racial laws in a manner akin to the resource states of the United States, Canada, South Africa and Australia – which until after World War II all possessed extreme de jure and de facto restrictions on nonwhite political and civil rights –is a probably more likely plan of action for Britain and France. So is trying to make their colonies completely integrated politically with the home country – à la French overseas departments today – with the goal of making poorer white people not see their ruling classes as their enemy.

In the resource states themselves, a White victory not succeeded by a later successful and permanent workers’ revolution would have more definite effects:
  1. no nonwhite civil rights movement(s) in the United States
    • alternatively the ruling classes would suppress them with mass incarceration at an earlier date than the 1980s
  2. quite probably the Fifteenth and Fourteenth Amendments would be repealed fairly soon after a White victory
    • such repeals were widely proposed in the two decades before 1917 and probably strongly favoured by most white Americans
      • however, the ruling classes had always been worried about the political consequences where a small number of black votes could influence statewide elections
      • after the Russian Revolution, although repeal likely remained popular amongst white Americans, the rulers were extremely afraid of present or future unfavourable international political consequences if repeal were proposed
      • with a reactionary ruler in the Russia, it is quite probable that the United States ruling elite would become favourable to repeal as they were aware of how beneficial racism was for them (sse Sebastian Lamb link above)
  3. an earlier and more severe apartheid in South Africa, as the European powers would be extremely favourable rather an ambivalent and there would be virtually no countries of colour or Stalinist countries rigidly sanctioning and refusing to recognise the apartheid state
  4. no citizenship for Natives in Australia and Canada as actually occurred in the 1960s
No USSR support for the KMT, China gets a conference like the 1884-5 one for Africa. China is divided and colonised permanently (with “open door policy” just like the Belgian Congo.)
Complete colonisation of China is a possibility I have never considered before. I imagine that it would necessarily mean China would be split, as you note.

Jared Diamond implied in his Guns, Germs and Steel that China is much more naturally united than India, but Diamond also believes this natural unity resulted (in part) from China being much more difficult to invade than India. China being impossible to invade was probably due to China’s western border being an extremely solid barrier due to repeated sequences of mountains and deserts plus the lack of a sea route like India had via the Arabian Sea. If the Allied powers divided China, Russia would insist upon logically get Manchuria, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia, and Japan would insist upon and logically get some part across the Taiwan Strait. Given that Taiwan is as poor in natural resources as Japan itself, the Japanese might be very insistent upon getting a substantial part of China. The question is who would get the north, central and southwest regions in this colonial (Allied) carve-up of China? Britain would logically get some of it with its Hong Kong colony, but would all the Allies accept a three-way division?

Then, assuming there is no decolonisation, how much would the different regions of a fully colonised China diverge in this scenario?
 
alternatively the ruling classes would suppress them with mass incarceration at an earlier date than the 1980s
Please explain this?
quite probably the Fifteenth and Fourteenth Amendments would be repealed fairly soon after a White victory

I see no way of doing that which doesn't immediately result in a Second American Civil War!
Source and/ or explanation please?
 

mial42

Gone Fishin'
Some sort of Russian Nazism (not just garden-variety Fascism; Mussolini was bad but nowhere near as bad as Lenin or Stalin) seems like the only path to this. If we want it to be symmetrical to OTL Nazism, I suppose a dedication to military expansionism and the genocide or subjugation of non-Slavs would be appropriate. Would be considerably scarier then Nazi Germany, since Russia is so much bigger and a non-Communist one would probably be much stronger economically then the USSR. In order to achieve a similar body count to OTL Communism, probably need to expand into at least one of Europe, China, or India. Probably possible, but not particularly likely.

Even China-style warlords, anarchy, and civil war, while worse then the Bolsheviks for Russia itself, would be much better then them for the rest of the world. Communism didn't just wreck Russia, it also devastated China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, much of the rest of Third World at various points, and Eastern Europe, and the massive boost to the prestige/funding of socialism probably helped doom India and most of the Third World to 40 years of stagnation (and seriously harm Great Britain itself for that matter). Most non-Communist forms of national suicide at least confine themselves to their country of origin.
 
The first possibility is that the Whites are unable to form a coherent government, and Russia descends into decades of warlordism as the White Generals turn on one another, proclaiming rival governments and fiefdoms all over Russia.

The second possibility is what many in this thread have already proposed- a Nazi-esque Russia. The annihilation of Russian Jews (along with the ethnic cleansing of Poles, Kazakhs, Ukrainians, etc.) had been called for by many in the Russian Fascist Party historically, but this had also been proposed by the fanatical Black Hundreds. What I suggest is that the Black Hundreds movement is somehow revived by a White Victory, and they take advantage of the inevitable despair that surrounds this victory. Many a Russian will want to blame someone for the horror and devastation that has wracked their country, and they will undoubtedly feel much anger towards the loss of loved ones and livelihoods. The Black Hundreds offer a convenient list of scapegoats, and they offer solutions far, FAR worse than conventional Fascist movements. I could see a Russia headed by members of the group escalating pogroms to full-blown mass killings comparable to the Holocaust, and intense ethnic cleansing campaigns all over Russia to slaughter Central Asians. Furthermore, this Nazi-like government would want to make examples of breakaway states in the West if they managed to reconquer them, which would result in even more carnage and mass murder as gangs of thugs murder their way through Kiev and Warsaw.

Truly, this would be an incredibly dark and hopeless future for Russia.
 
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