AHC: F*ck Up Europe
- Thread starter whitecrow
- Start date
I was thinking the same thing... They still had their colonies in 1920's and 30's though.
I'm not sure how you would have total decolonization within 90 years of 1850. They could lose a lot of them, but I don't see them being totally stripped of their empires without it being ASB.
whitecrow
Banned
British and French colonial empires (as well as Portugese and Spanish to an extent) were still allive and kicking well into the 20th century.
When I said no Ameriwank I meant that you can't write "USA conquers Europe lol" as I know some posters here would be tempted to write that.
OK, but how would you strip them of most of the major colonies? UK has to loose India, France has to loose Indochina and French West Africa, etc.
tehskyman
Banned
WW2 Goes on for much longer than it did in OTL and starts later in Early 1941. Germany instead of starting off invading Poland starts off invading the Netherlands and Belgium. Germany manages to take Portugal Spain and France causing their colonies to declare themselves independent. America remains highly isolationist and Pearl harbour does not happen because the Japanese military decides to focus on China.
This ends up with Germany in control of much of Western Europe and Portions of Eastern Europe. Britain fights a long and protracted war with Germany and Russia attempts it from the east. Eventually Germany manages to take Britain. Russia weary of direct war signs a peace treaty
After some time the European nations rise up in rebellion in say 1985 and after a huge cluster-fuck war of 10 years (with nuclear weapons) aided by Russian help Europe is finally free from Berlin(which has been nuked). The remaining nations are war torn, germany is in pieces and many are partially failed nations.
This ends up with Germany in control of much of Western Europe and Portions of Eastern Europe. Britain fights a long and protracted war with Germany and Russia attempts it from the east. Eventually Germany manages to take Britain. Russia weary of direct war signs a peace treaty
After some time the European nations rise up in rebellion in say 1985 and after a huge cluster-fuck war of 10 years (with nuclear weapons) aided by Russian help Europe is finally free from Berlin(which has been nuked). The remaining nations are war torn, germany is in pieces and many are partially failed nations.
With the POD of the mid-nineteenth century?
-Have the Sikhs join the Indian Rebellion of 1857....that should kickstart things. The Indo-Gangetic plain without the help of the Sikhs is most likely lost. Whether or not these areas revert to being separate once more isn't really relevant to OP's request, but the independence of Northern India will hurt.
-Have the Sikhs join the Indian Rebellion of 1857....that should kickstart things. The Indo-Gangetic plain without the help of the Sikhs is most likely lost. Whether or not these areas revert to being separate once more isn't really relevant to OP's request, but the independence of Northern India will hurt.
You've got 70-80 years of butterflies to work with. Have something go different with the 1848 rebellions and things are lined up to be quite different long run.
Though why these "massive Socialist rebellions' are less democratic than the OTL governments of these areas needs some exploration.
Its possible, but Britain is not Russia (for example). Its not going to become authoritarian just because the proletariat rebels in the name of Socialism.
If you have the governments act less democratic during the latter 19th century then rebellions can occur, and a rebellion is almost inherently undemocratic in result, especially in an ideologically motivated one. As for Britain, I think they would need the rebellion to succeed to lose their colonies.
I really disagree with the idea that they're going to be inherently undemocratic, ideologically motivated or not.
Its certainly possible - but if you have less democratic governments being rebelled against, it's likely that democracy and socialism are tied more tightly together.
whitecrow
Banned
... this doesn't seem to be supported by OTL events.
Anyway, for UK is there any way to create a conflict between supporters of monarch and those that want to replace the monarchy with a republic?
How many rebellions have been in the name of democracy only to end without any? (Answer: almost all of them.)
Do you really think that Russia and Britain are so similar that people are going to act the same way in both?
Picking Russia as the first one, and Britain as the one who needs to be f*cked up the most in the sense of the scenario (so a rather through revolution would do nicely).
The monarchy has been so neutered, what's the point?
Beedok: That does not mean that a socialist revolution is going to be more prone to fail there than a nonsocialist revolution.
When in the world did I say that? I was having socialist revolutions because I saw them as the most likely to get the other countries to turn into reactionary dictatorships to get everyone in on the failure of democracy, plus I saw them as the most likely to actually happen. We're not about to see technocratic revolutions sweeping Europe unless things get really weird, but socialist ones could happen.
You: If you have the governments act less democratic during the latter 19th century then rebellions can occur, and a rebellion is almost inherently undemocratic in result, especially in an ideologically motivated one.
My apologies if I read that as targeted more at socialism specifically than was intended.
Again, do you really think that people are going to act the same way in both?
There's a reason why the revolutions that turn into horrible dictatorships did so, and its not that revolutionaries are all wannabe despots.
Nope, it was targeted at any ideology. A non-ideological revolution is more likely to result in a democracy (if it makes an effort) because the people in charge have fewer issues with handing over power because they don't have goals for the new system, they just want to get rid of the old one. As long as it isn't a military coup (which I don't count as a revolution).