First off, I admit I don't know all that much about the Ming-Qing transition beyond what I've read in a few general histories of China. But is there any way to have the fall of the Ming result in a different outcome - could the Shun Dynasty somehow survive? Is there any way for Wu Sangui to fend off both the Manchus and the rebels, either to restore the Ming or found his own dynasty, as he attempted many years later? Were there any other serious contenders for power besides Li, Wu and the Manchus?
AHC Alternate outcomes to the fall of the Ming?
- Thread starter varyar
- Start date
IIRC Li Zicheng tried to make Wu Sangui join his side, but things went sideways. If they manage to get along (somehow) then the Qing will probably be defeated at the Shanhai Pass.
Also, Koxinga laid siege to Nanjing in 1659 (15 years after the fall of the Ming), but failed. Had he succeeded, he could've set up a Ming remnant state in southern China - there were still a few claimants left, but he would be the power behind the throne.
Also, Koxinga laid siege to Nanjing in 1659 (15 years after the fall of the Ming), but failed. Had he succeeded, he could've set up a Ming remnant state in southern China - there were still a few claimants left, but he would be the power behind the throne.
I've read that the Koreans considered a strike against the Qing but decided against it for whatever reason. Hm... what if they do cross the Yalu, forcing the Qing to withdraw to handle the situation, and Wu uses that time to take Beijing? Some of Li's forces defect to him and he's - just barely - able to hold Beijing and the border when the Qing come back?
Much like he was on Taiwan, yes. That's an interesting scenario, a parallel to the Southern Song.
That would be very interesting. Do you know about how he administrated Yunnan? I doubt he would hand his newly found position of power over to the decadent and scattered Ming, plus he's Han Chinese so conquering the south wouldn't be as difficult as it was for the Qing.
I actually am working on a TL based on the idea of the Qing fracturing in 1645 (following the death of the Shunzhi Emperor to smallpox in January). After the death of Nurhaci, there was actually quite a bit of political infighting between up until around 1650. In particular, Hong Taiji's death resulted in a succession crisis that was only solved with the compromise of a dual regency, and the regency itself was fraught with a series of purges and rehabilitations as Dorgon and his opponents struggled for power. I think the death of the Shunzhi Emperor without a clear heir would result in a civil war among the Qing, which would buy Li Zicheng and the Southern Ming time to consolidate and defend against the Manchus.
Oh, I like that. Can't wait to read it!
And I was slightly wrong on the Korean intervention against the Manchus - it was planned, but only some years after the Qing had taken Beijing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyojong_of_Joseon#Northern_campaigns).