AH Gov't Ideas

[DominusNovus]

A thread for brainstorming on alternate governments, political systems, etc. How to achieve them might be interesting, but I'm more interested in what effects they might have. I'm not considering these in the context of any specific timeframe.

Its late, so I forgot most of my ideas. I can only remember one.

Family voting
Basicly, the father (or mother, or somehow both) gets a # of votes equal to the minor dependents in the household (basicly, their kids). So, a guy with 2 kids would get 3 votes (or 4, depending on the status of women in this society). When the kids reach the age of majority or move out on their own, their votes go with them.
-This might encourage people to have larger families, especially in smaller communities (where its easier to increase your share of the votes).
-An extrapolation of that is that rural life becomes preferable to urban life (since you can have a greater say in the local government), at least to larger families.
-However, with the population growing due to larger families, I expect people to be constantly looking for new rural areas as their original ones get filled up with people. Such a society might be expansionistic, always looking for labensraum.
-Another extrapolation is that the law will come to favor families, since they control so many votes. Many rural communities might establish laws against immigration, to maintain the locals' share of the votes.
-In these smaller communities, people might also be encouraged to have large families, basicly to "keep up with the Jones's". Otherwise, their neighbors will have a larger share of the votes.
-There's the possibility that some vote-mongers might encourage their kids to have children of their own while they're still dependents, to further increase their votes.
-I'd expect that such a society might take many precautions to keep their children safe. Little or no child labor. Possibly increased medical research.
-The age of majority might be relatively late, but I imagine that, if they make it too late, many people might just move out on their own, out of spite.

Thats pretty much my thoughts on this idea.

And I'll feel pretty dumb if any society ever actually did this.

 

[David S Poepoe]

It seems it would be relatively repressive, at least from the POV of anyone not reaching their majority yet. Unless other rights were came along with right to vote, like the ability to take your parents to court for abuse, I don't see why any vote should be extended to any child. More than likely there won't be that many votes per household as you suggest. Why provide a vote for a young girl when it will be taken away from (or never extended) her when she reaches majority. The vote should only be available to men - it would at least cut down the red tape.

Also I disagree with it favoring the rural areas, I think it would favor the urban areas where one would have a job that could support many children. The rich, with the dozens of children and votes, won't be on the farm but in town.

Also you are implying, tho not stating, that some how the people have an impact on politics outside just electing their representatives. There appears to be propositions or some sort of public vote on measures, since the amount of votes a person has doesn't mean alot if you are only filling a ballot once every two years.

 

[carlton_bach]

A few ideas that might (or might not) go anywhere:

- propertyholder suffrage. This was quite common in earlier days and the tradition might simply continue. Expect to see lads of lawsuits regarding the minimum size of property required, real-estate firms specialising in voting right purchase, complicated residency requirement rulings and higher land prices.

- office selection by lot. Not a good proposition fopr jobs requiring expertise, but in ancient Athens and other poleis, public offices were filled not by election (felt to be a divisive process - something we can all sympathise with, neh?) but by lot. Of course a modern democracy would require some kind of pre-selection process, but say you replaced city councillors or state officers with a body of citizens selected by lot, advised by a body of senior civil servants providing the expertise?

- community policing. WI suspicion of a formal police force were such that all adult (male - intially) members of the community were still required to 'police' it. Again, there would have to be some full-time staff in modern times - jailers, investigators etc - but these would be kept to a minimum. Most patrolling and guarding would be done by citizens having to give up one day a week.

- formalised mixing of military and civil power. The whole idea of separate spheres is actually historically unusual, and specifically western. Say elected officials also serveed in military command, and higher elective offices had a certain military experience (or indeed rank) as a prerequisite. Instead of NCOs and commissioned officers, you'd have career versus elective rank. It might alsop translate into suffrage requiring military commitment as in the traditional Swiss model. At least I don't see how it becomes acceptable for the fighters to allow noncombatants to have a say in who leads them into battle.

- WI the Personenverbandsstaat stays on? People keep carrying their law in their bosom. Communities of immigrants stay citizens of their countries. Consulates incorporate a judicial branch to adjudicate disputes between them according to theire law. They pay taxes to their home state and technically receive state services from there - local services actually used are of course reimbursed by a formalised arrangement.

 

[Straha]

Some possible ideas:

Technocracy. Imagine a governemtn thats run by big corporations/ a state ruled by scientists. The govenrment would be an oligarchy and the poor kept in line with drugs. A technocracy could evolve in pretty much any ATL with technology from OTL's 1980's levels of tech to onwards. The possibilities include a technocratic america in an ATL.


Now for possible economic systems...

Democratic capitalism. The companies would be owned by the workers in a collective. The size of the companies would be lmited to make direct democracy workable but companeis would be linked together.

 

[Alayta]

All the ideas were intresting. but carlton-there is a reason for those methods to vanish!!!!

I´d think initiation rites to certain positions in society could be intresting. They would mark a high level of dedication of those who go through it!!!
I would oppose such a thing, as it marks inequality....

 

[Faeelin]

Hmm. This is just an idea, but could we have a Holy Roman Empire that survived? Germany is a large, centralized state, but Italy is a much looser body. Italy would be more more focused on individual cities, whereas Germans would be ruled more unitary. The result would be something like a cross between the Hapsburgs and the stuarts.

 

[Norman]

Guildism

Government is controlled by guilds, and only people who belong to a guild have input.

 

[Tom_B]

Weighted Voting

I floated this one before but it's worthy of a reprise.

Not everyone's vote is the same.

At age 16 you can vote but it only count for 2 points. If you graduate HS you get 1 more point and an accredited college still another point. At age 21 you also get 3 more points. If you serve in the military you get 2 more points and upon an honorable discharge get 1 more point (certain very prestigous medals give points as well).

Convictions for misdemeanors knock off points for only for 10 years. At age 80 you lose 2 points.

Under the Constitution changing the voting weights requires a 60% majority of the legislature in 4 consecutive sessions.

 

[Pendragon]

Government is controlled by guilds, and only people who belong to a guild have input.

A great example of this would be the D'ni from the fictional Myst universe. It consists of four computer game (Myst, Riven, Exile, and a recently released number IV (forget its name).

Anyway, in this setting an ancient people known as the D'ni have a society that is entirely based on Guild strucutre. The men join a guild at a young age and remain in that guild for life. The goverment consists of a Council of Guild Masters and a High Council of the 18 Grand Masters (one from each of the Major Guilds). At the highest level is the ruliling 5 Great Lords who were once Grand Masters but now have the authroity of kings.

I reccomend the Myst games to anybody. Still, it describes a society ruled by guilds.

 

[Brilliantlight]

What about a weighted plutocracy? You need x dollars to vote and you can vote as many times as you have money to pay for it.

 

[david3565]

Actually, guilds held powerful sway in local/twon politics during the Renaissance and Early Modern periods, with political machines and some integration in to gov't.

Government is controlled by guilds, and only people who belong to a guild have input.

 

[DuQuense]

In the Honor Harrington Books You only get to vote if you pay more in taxes than you receive in entitlements.

Heinlien proposed a system where only the rich got Gov't jobs. but they have to pay for the Gov't out of their own pockets.

I favor the Multiple Vote System--
One vote for Citizenship [everyone gets]
One for Military/Social Service [Show willingness to Serve your country]
One for Education [ Suspossily you learn to think logialy in College] :Rolleyes:
One if you own a business that employs over X?# of people [You are invested in the Socity & the Community]
One for Foriegn Travel [Any Military person serving over seas for X time would be elible] for X? Time [You learn new ways of looking at the World]
One for Certain amount of Wealth. [if you own half a billion $$$ of stock, You pay more attention to Current events]
You can have any combination of these.
The seventh Vote for Extraordinary Service. {Not given to any setting Gov't official, or within one election of reteriment} Given to a Livington , or a Enistien, a super Nobel/Medalof Congress/Victoria Cross. Usally given Posthumously, entitials holder to all seven Votes.

 

[David S Poepoe]

The seventh Vote for Extraordinary Service. {Not given to any setting Gov't official, or within one election of reteriment} Given to a Livington , or a Enistien, a super Nobel/Medalof Congress/Victoria Cross. Usally given Posthumously, entitials holder to all seven Votes.

Receiving a seventh vote posthumously seems ridiculous. What good does it do - and what defines 'extraordinary service'?

 

[Knight Of Armenia]

I've always been partial to Platoism, myself; Plato's Republic became the model for the Platonic Republic in my Light in the East TL. Basically, a system where there are a small number of elite that rule, who receive a comprehensive education, and (at the highest Council level) have absolute power over laws and such, but are paired with eachother by the Council, have their children raised by the State itself, and can own no property, living in incredibly spartan living quarters (barracks, basically). Then there are the soldiers, which are more than the elite but less than the masses, which are chosen from those in the masses who show themselves to be incredibly able physically as young children, and are also raised by the State but with an emphasis on obedience and military prowess rather than education and power (if they survive into retirement age, they are reintroduced into the masses with compensation). Finally, there are the masses, which have absolutely no power over the system, but can own property, choose their own spouses and raise their own children (except in the rare cases when those children are taken into the elite or the soldiers, which happens very rarely).

This system goes on and on because everyone is a cog (similar to Orwell's Ingsoc). All sides have something that they can hold on to which keeps them from getting out of line (power, property, or the mix of both).