A rainy May in France 1940

[Brilliantlight]

WI there were clear skies in France for the first week in May 1940 and then it starts pouring in buckets? For the last 21 days in May it rains 18 of them accumlating to 20cm in that month.

 

[Brilliantlight]

Are the Germans slowed down enough that the French can stop them?

 

[stodge]

Bad Weather...

The poor weather would also interdict British and French air operations and the Anglo-French move into Belgium.

My first thought on this is that we aren't dealing with Russian tracks here. The asphalt and tarmac of France and Belgium can take rain so it wouldn't stop the German advance.

Are we supposing perhaps that heavy rain makes a crossing of the Meuse impossible or at least much harder for Rommel than in OTL ?

 

[Cockroach]

My first thought on this is that we aren't dealing with Russian tracks here. The asphalt and tarmac of France and Belgium can take rain so it wouldn't stop the German advance.

Forcing the Panzer onto the roads will make them more predictable. The allies can just dump AT guns and field guns near the roads and kock out all the incoming Panzer.

 

[Brilliantlight]

The poor weather would also interdict British and French air operations and the Anglo-French move into Belgium.

My first thought on this is that we aren't dealing with Russian tracks here. The asphalt and tarmac of France and Belgium can take rain so it wouldn't stop the German advance.

Are we supposing perhaps that heavy rain makes a crossing of the Meuse impossible or at least much harder for Rommel than in OTL ?

The Luftwaffe is also grounded and was better then the Anglo/Franco air forces. The Anglo/Franco armies are not going to be pounded by Axis air either.We are talking about a lot of rain here, my guess is that the rivers would be swollen. Also most German infantry walked in 1940 and there are probably areas you have to take off-road and that will be very muddy.

 

[Brilliantlight]

Forcing the Panzer onto the roads will make them more predictable. The allies can just dump AT guns and field guns near the roads and kock out all the incoming Panzer.

Good point.

 

[Redbeard]

The Luftwaffe is also grounded and was better then the Anglo/Franco air forces. The Anglo/Franco armies are not going to be pounded by Axis air either.We are talking about a lot of rain here, my guess is that the rivers would be swollen. Also most German infantry walked in 1940 and there are probably areas you have to take off-road and that will be very muddy.

I agree, without the Luftwaffe reigning terror on French recruits void of AA the Germans will meet much stiffer resistance and added to the swollen rivers and muddy ground it is likely to be just enough to buy the French the time to stiffen up their defence. IMO the margin of success was veru narrow in the 1940 campaign as well as a lot of other apparently deceisive campaigns.

If the bad weather also has less British and French troops advance into Belgium, the allies are beginning to have a very good case.

BTW I can tell you 21 days on campaign in torring rain is no fun. I've tried it for 10 days in peacetime on the fine roadnet of Zealand. As long as you have dry socks it's no big deal, but soon everything becomes much more troublesome and attrition accelerates.

I would hate to be in the foot slogging German infantry and also wonder how the thousands of horses in a German infantry Division would look after three weeks of rain and no hot stable?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Forcing the Panzer onto the roads will make them more predictable. The allies can just dump AT guns and field guns near the roads and knock out all the incoming Panzer.

As I recall in 1940 the French and British AT guns were generally ineffective against the German Panzers.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

The lack of umbrellas and rain slickers proves decisive and the soggy and miserable panzer divisions finally surrender in June of 1940. Never again will anyone complain about the traditional English weather going south for the summer!

 

[Brilliantlight]

As I recall in 1940 the French and British AT guns were generally ineffective against the German Panzers.

Not totally, it was not an all or nothing case. There were German tanks it was quite effective against like the Panzer I. Of course those were crappy tanks but they were better then nothing. Also nothing prevents the French and Brits putting their tanks along the road and their guns were effective against German tanks.

 

[Brilliantlight]

What if Stalin decides it is time for him to invade some German allies but not Germany proper? Countries such as Bulgaria and Romania. What could Hiler do about it. Would Hitler be able to fight them when he is bogged down in fighting the French?

 

[Redbeard]

As I recall in 1940 the French and British AT guns were generally ineffective against the German Panzers.

The British 2 pdr. was the 2nd best AT gun (54mm at 30@ at 500m) in 1940 only exceeded by the (rare) French 47mm (57mm at 30@ at 500m). The more common French 25mm had penetration on level with the German 37mm (29mm at 30@ at 500m). No German tank was safe against the allied AT guns of 1940, but the German AT guns had severe problems with tanks like the Matilda and the Char B. The allied problem in 1940 was that they rarely was given the time to deploy ATguns or tanks in numbers were the German tanks showed up.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Brilliantlight]

The British 2 pdr. was the 2nd best AT gun (54mm at 30@ at 500m) in 1940 only exceeded by the (rare) French 47mm (57mm at 30@ at 500m). The more common French 25mm had penetration on level with the German 37mm (29mm at 30@ at 500m). No German tank was safe against the allied AT guns of 1940, but the German AT guns had severe problems with tanks like the Matilda and the Char B. The allied problem in 1940 was that they rarely was given the time to deploy ATguns or tanks in numbers were the German tanks showed up.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Were there enough of the better guns made?

 

[Redbeard]

Were there enough of the better guns made?

The 47mm was supposed to be Divisional level AT gun, but never reached very many units. A very interesting wheeled armoured vehicle (based on Laffly APC) with the 47mm protruding froim the back of the vehicle just reached the front in June 40, and would have been a very interesting tankdestroyer splendid for quick deployment in front of armoured advances. The 25mm was in short supply too, but was quite sufficient to deal with 1940 German tanks. Units being short on materiel and/or men was rather the standard than the exception, and the allies in 1940 not suffering especially much.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Ward]

If the Rains in northern France slowed the Germans down enought the French Airforce would have time to change there Fighter units to better aircraft . This would of let the units still forming in France to finish shaking down .
Something to think of is that the French industry went crazy and built more aircraft and tanks in the 6 weeks of the Battle of France then the did for the earler part of the year.
A slower moving campain would of been more to the tactics of the French who were more into Fire power than Speed.
Rember the French were learning how to stop the Germans in the Last two weeks of the Battle .

 

[Brilliantlight]

The 47mm was supposed to be Divisional level AT gun, but never reached very many units. A very interesting wheeled armoured vehicle (based on Laffly APC) with the 47mm protruding froim the back of the vehicle just reached the front in June 40, and would have been a very interesting tankdestroyer splendid for quick deployment in front of armoured advances. The 25mm was in short supply too, but was quite sufficient to deal with 1940 German tanks. Units being short on materiel and/or men was rather the standard than the exception, and the allies in 1940 not suffering especially much.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

So the French were short of good AT guns but a few weeks more and they would have had plenty. Is that what you meant?

 

[Redbeard]

So the French were short of good AT guns but a few weeks more and they would have had plenty. Is that what you meant?

I doubt if two weeks of AT-gun production alone will make much of a difference, but the German campaign bogging down for two weeks will make a big difference as the French operational system then has the time to co-ordinate defences. Under such circumstances the existing AT guns in numbers and design will be adequate. BTW when the French started to learn how to deal with blitzkrieg after Weygrand took over in early June, they found out that they had thousands of extra potent AT guns at their hands. The old M1897 75mm field gun was deployed with great succes as an AT gun.

But if the Germans postpone the campaign like at Barbarossa (to say 22nd of June 40) I think the extra French production (and operationalisation) of not at least aircraft will make a difference.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Knight Of Armenia]

Regardless of how much French production kicks in, it would be pointless; as many of you said yourselves, France learned to fight the Blitzkrieg near the end of the Battle of France, not one week into it. The French can produce as much as they want, but they will still parcel out AT guns and tanks over a wide front instead of massing them, and will still emphasize firepower over speed. This might even work out to German advantage, since this would undercut the weaknesses of the Allied plan (leaving France undefended) if the Allies make military gains against the Germans in Belgium (perhaps the Germans fight battles and keep on retreating, drawing the Allies deeper after them, while keeping their Panzers in position to thrust into the heart of France once the rain is over.

 

[Brilliantlight]

I doubt if two weeks of AT-gun production alone will make much of a difference, but the German campaign bogging down for two weeks will make a big difference as the French operational system then has the time to co-ordinate defences. Under such circumstances the existing AT guns in numbers and design will be adequate. BTW when the French started to learn how to deal with blitzkrieg after Weygrand took over in early June, they found out that they had thousands of extra potent AT guns at their hands. The old M1897 75mm field gun was deployed with great succes as an AT gun.

But if the Germans postpone the campaign like at Barbarossa (to say 22nd of June 40) I think the extra French production (and operationalisation) of not at least aircraft will make a difference.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

This thread assumes the invasion goes on schedule.

 

[Brilliantlight]

Regardless of how much French production kicks in, it would be pointless; as many of you said yourselves, France learned to fight the Blitzkrieg near the end of the Battle of France, not one week into it. The French can produce as much as they want, but they will still parcel out AT guns and tanks over a wide front instead of massing them, and will still emphasize firepower over speed. This might even work out to German advantage, since this would undercut the weaknesses of the Allied plan (leaving France undefended) if the Allies make military gains against the Germans in Belgium (perhaps the Germans fight battles and keep on retreating, drawing the Allies deeper after them, while keeping their Panzers in position to thrust into the heart of France once the rain is over.

Doubt it, as numbers do matter in the end. Also France was short of fighters, ground the Luftwaffe for a month and give the French and Brits a few weeks of fighter production and they get a LOT closer.