Despite the flaws in design and concept, More Battlecruisers.
If only because they are about the only Capital Ships to genuinely get into action.
If only because they are about the only Capital Ships to genuinely get into action.
A better High Seas Fleet for WW1
- Thread starter mack8
- Start date
You must provide a permanent shipping lane, otherwise no one will trade with you. HFS must break up the RN and allow free trade.
It's nearly 20 years old now but go to http://www.letterstime.com/ and see how Jim wrote it could be done but sadly without an ending. It's a great read and you'll throughly enjoy it.
Hear Hear! Letterstime is a great alt history. It depends almost entirely on the better Kaiserliche Marine leadership, and a much more aggressive use of the assets they had, rather than different builds. One could accuse the author of putting a thumb on the scale, although he insists he determined the outcome of all battles with dice rolls in a gaming system. In Letterstime more of the KM light cruisers than OTL were finished or rebuilt with 15 cm main guns, as suggested above.
Absolutely agree on light cruisers. If the premise of the HSF was to locate and overwhelm independent portions of the grand fleet then you have to be able to find them in the first place.
The Germans never had enough light cruisers to start with, they then lost all deployed overseas, Konigsberg, Karlshruhe, Emden, Leipzig, Nurnberg, Dresden and Breslau and then lost another four in the first months of the war, Ariadne, Koln, Mainz and Magdeburg. Their replacement programme was too slow and too late. It is illustrative of the fact that at Jutland the HSF only had 2 light cruiser squadrons of which only one did any scouting and paid a high price for it. The Grand fleet deployed four whole squadrons at Jutland plus detached cruisers in support of destroyer flotillas and as battle squadron support. They could have called on a 5th beefed up squadron in the Harwich Force too.
So not enough cruisers and not used properly to actually scout means that not only are you much much less likely to achieve HSF goals but also much more likely to walk into the Grand Fleet unawares - as indeed they did, and that was despite the British using their squadrons sub optimally (honourable exception to Goodenough and 2LCS who got it exactly right)
The gunnery mismatch has been mentioned - certainly when they put 5.9's on their cruisers it made for a punchier fight as per 2nd SG at Jutland
The Germans never had enough light cruisers to start with, they then lost all deployed overseas, Konigsberg, Karlshruhe, Emden, Leipzig, Nurnberg, Dresden and Breslau and then lost another four in the first months of the war, Ariadne, Koln, Mainz and Magdeburg. Their replacement programme was too slow and too late. It is illustrative of the fact that at Jutland the HSF only had 2 light cruiser squadrons of which only one did any scouting and paid a high price for it. The Grand fleet deployed four whole squadrons at Jutland plus detached cruisers in support of destroyer flotillas and as battle squadron support. They could have called on a 5th beefed up squadron in the Harwich Force too.
So not enough cruisers and not used properly to actually scout means that not only are you much much less likely to achieve HSF goals but also much more likely to walk into the Grand Fleet unawares - as indeed they did, and that was despite the British using their squadrons sub optimally (honourable exception to Goodenough and 2LCS who got it exactly right)
The gunnery mismatch has been mentioned - certainly when they put 5.9's on their cruisers it made for a punchier fight as per 2nd SG at Jutland
kham_coc
Banned
Well yes and no, the story as such is still ongoing.
NavWeaps Forums-Letterstime - announcing an experiment
How many here remember Lannon's mother-in-law, Terilyn? Auntie "T" I portrayed her "interacting" with Captain Theargus (avatar of poster The Argus
The OP is looking for something else than the usual BB/BC discussion.
It somehow leads me into thinking that the submarine could be a different element.
'Swarms' of submarines could be stationed at the critical naval bases. This, i believe, was what the admirals feared.
rather than focusing on the massive BB's, maybe a 1914 'e-boat' could be more useful?
Airships would be excellent in the scouting role.
Combine this with the first type of carriers, the North Sea could have been rather unpleasant for GF.
Just a thought. Maybe not war-winning, but surely something else.
oh yes: get an admiral who can grasp a new concept!
It somehow leads me into thinking that the submarine could be a different element.
'Swarms' of submarines could be stationed at the critical naval bases. This, i believe, was what the admirals feared.
rather than focusing on the massive BB's, maybe a 1914 'e-boat' could be more useful?
Airships would be excellent in the scouting role.
Combine this with the first type of carriers, the North Sea could have been rather unpleasant for GF.
Just a thought. Maybe not war-winning, but surely something else.
oh yes: get an admiral who can grasp a new concept!
Yes, but when scouting is restricted to periscope, the amount of kills that can be expected as poor. You just can't see.
An interesting thought. I had thought of deploying such things from a "mothership", so that perhaps a swarm of them could be sent into Scapa Flow. This presupposes operational security. Else, in the North Sea, I think they are not much more use than coastal defence.
They didn't do great OTL.
Someone who asks before the war: "What if the RN doesn't implement a close blockade with battleships? What if they use AMCs far off?"
There are some side stories too that are most excellent, if a little slow in coming.
This was done for Jutland but Jutland was delayed by a week and the submarines had to return to Germany.
German U-Boat captains in WW1 reported that as soon as the Allies began instituting a convoy system, to them it was as if every ship had just vanished. In WW1, the German Navy could not read Allied codes and had no aerial reconnaissance, so they were restricted to just parking U-boats where they expected ships to show up and just hoping for the best.
I recently read 'The Naval Flank of the Western Front, the German MarineKorps Flandern 1914-18' by Mark Karau
It occurs to me that a better HSF might have been to maintain only one battle squadron in commission - Konigs, Kaisers and Badens + 1SG and 2G to keep the Grand Fleet honest and then focus on a shallow/narrow seas coastal offence approach. Lots of destroyers, submarines and light craft backed up by a small number of light cruisers that would also act as fast minelayers ala Brummer and Bremse. The focus is raiding into the channel and southern north seas and utilising the flanking position the possession of Belgium creates. The Grand Fleet is of little use here but the presence of 1SG and 2SG allows for longer range raiding and remains enough to tie down the RN heavies. The heavy ships are a fleet in being/supporting the Baltic flank
A riskier channel pushes crossings further west and requires much more protection and commitment of resources. Its not going to win the war but it will have a more beneficial impact for the German army than OTL
It occurs to me that a better HSF might have been to maintain only one battle squadron in commission - Konigs, Kaisers and Badens + 1SG and 2G to keep the Grand Fleet honest and then focus on a shallow/narrow seas coastal offence approach. Lots of destroyers, submarines and light craft backed up by a small number of light cruisers that would also act as fast minelayers ala Brummer and Bremse. The focus is raiding into the channel and southern north seas and utilising the flanking position the possession of Belgium creates. The Grand Fleet is of little use here but the presence of 1SG and 2SG allows for longer range raiding and remains enough to tie down the RN heavies. The heavy ships are a fleet in being/supporting the Baltic flank
A riskier channel pushes crossings further west and requires much more protection and commitment of resources. Its not going to win the war but it will have a more beneficial impact for the German army than OTL
There have been some fascinating discussions about the effectiveness of a convoy with one escort vs a convoy with no escorts vs regular sailing with hunter killer groups. Short version. Convoys starve raiders of targets regardless of the escorts. But then you get into discussions on how convoys smash your cargo throughput comparably to having a couple of raiders sinking ships. The math of convoys aren't as simple as popular history makes out.
cardcarrier
Banned
The same general problem (although not quite as pronounced) existed in ww1 hsf as it did for the km 25 years later. Germany’s geography meant they would lose any long term naval conflict; even if you fiated their ww2 conquests (France and Norway) onto the hsf by the end of 1914 they still lose, lose badly and accomplish nothing
You can add the same general problem of having a patronage mill of corrupt plutocrats determining who became ship captains and fleet admirals. Less of problem than they had in the second war but still a serious problem given that the average German ship captain was someone you wouldn’t trust to tie their own shoes.
Any fleet expansion beyond otl either brings in even less talented nepo babies into command or if the educated middle class is used involves a Germany none of us would recognize
Germany in the years leading up to the war was only conscripting 50 percent of eligible males, vs France 85
Tight budgets where the hold up; and tight budgets came about for the stupid rediculous sums used to construct the yard queen battleships
Match France and you have 3 more active armies on day 1 of the war and another half an army in general reserve. And those are big 2 brigade square division armies
You can add the same general problem of having a patronage mill of corrupt plutocrats determining who became ship captains and fleet admirals. Less of problem than they had in the second war but still a serious problem given that the average German ship captain was someone you wouldn’t trust to tie their own shoes.
Any fleet expansion beyond otl either brings in even less talented nepo babies into command or if the educated middle class is used involves a Germany none of us would recognize
Germany in the years leading up to the war was only conscripting 50 percent of eligible males, vs France 85
Tight budgets where the hold up; and tight budgets came about for the stupid rediculous sums used to construct the yard queen battleships
Match France and you have 3 more active armies on day 1 of the war and another half an army in general reserve. And those are big 2 brigade square division armies
I don't function properly these days so sorry for as yet lack of input to some very interesting points, but i found this very good site containing details on major german and british combatants including costs, so that gives an idea how many extra marks are needed for more cruisers etc. Also puts in perpective the numerical disparity between the two foes. Unfortunately, no details on destroyers though.
Dreadnought Battleships
Dreadnought Battleship. First World War Naval warfare including the Battles of Jutland, Coronel and the Falklands, the scuttling at Scapa Flow and warships sunk.
www.worldwar1.co.uk
And some good info on destroyers here.
PS: and i must be blond, wikipedia has a much better/simpler to grasp overview
Großes Torpedoboot 1913 History
The Imperial German Navy (Hochseeflotte), Großes Torpedoboot 1913 History, Torpedoboats, Großes Torpedoboot 1913, Largest class of torpedo boats build by the German Hochseeflotte
www.german-navy.de
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Yes they do seem to be useful in that regards
Even in WW2 the Japanese seemed to use the 4 Kongos for every job and they were effectively half sisters of HMS Tiger
Perhaps an earlier Fast super dreadnought design such as the Queen Elizabeth class?
Fascinating read, but are the RN dreadnoughts as susceptible to cordite explosions like their BCs were? It also seems a bit far fetched to have all the RN BCs at Dogger Bank anihilated like that, but perhaps others more knowledgeable can comment on that. Me i would think just trading the valiant Blucher for Lion would be a good result.
I though the BCs went boom because they had been stacking shells and/or bags inside the turrets to acelerate firing?
If they can get away with it, having an extra BC instead of the 5th Konig could have made all kinds of differences at Jutland, given the fragile RN BCs. And even more so if Hindenburg would have been ready in time for Jutland. Aiui Fisher was gone from 1911 so the british are unlikely to build more BCs over what they built imo.
In fact, looking at previous german shipbuilding perhaps they should have limited every BB class to 4 ships where some had 5 ships, with the extra ship being an AC.
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Others might correct me but my understanding is that they started stacking shells/bags AFTER Dogger Bank, though perhaps the cordite problem and the not so flash-tight doors problem were there already?