The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

[BurkeanLibCon]

I wonder if Central Italy after the Gothic Wars of the mid-6th Century could be considered a comparable description for post-WWII Europe of this reality:

I made a comparison to the Gothic Wars a few months back, personally I agree with you.

Europe would be done in this world. They may economically recover to 2nd world levels, but they’ll be culturally numb - from the leaders of the world to total self-destruction in 60 years.

 

[David Ritz]

I made a comparison to the Gothic Wars a few months back, personally I agree with you.

Europe would be done in this world. They may economically recover to 2nd world levels, but they’ll be culturally numb - from the leaders of the world to total self-destruction in 60 years.

There would also be the equivalent of the Justinian Plague in this world in the form of all the biological weapons that are used.

Here is Rome in 600AD according to a favourite channel of mine.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

I made a comparison to the Gothic Wars a few months back, personally I agree with you.

Europe would be done in this world. They may economically recover to 2nd world levels, but they’ll be culturally numb - from the leaders of the world to total self-destruction in 60 years.

There would also be the equivalent of the Justinian Plague in this world in the form of all the biological weapons that are used.

Here is Rome in 600AD according to a favourite channel of mine.

Would talk of the "decline of the West" be far more common in some historiographies about the 21st century? Instead of being used as a buzzword for reaction, they would view the World Wars as Western civilization essentially blowing itself apart in the scramble for power and domination.

Would they say that, like Rome, European civilization destroyed itself because of corrupt and decadent elites (i.e., the Nazis and the Communists) who cannibalized Europe out of a demented imperialist ambition?

 

[David Ritz]

Would talk of the "decline of the West" be far more common in some historiographies about the 21st century? Instead of being used as a buzzword for reaction, they would view the World Wars as Western civilization essentially blowing itself apart in the scramble for power and domination.

Would they say that, like Rome, European civilization destroyed itself because of corrupt and decadent elites (i.e., the Nazis and the Communists)?

I can see the Nazis and Communists being the barbarians of the story filling in the vacuum after the First World War tore apart the Hapsburg, German, Russian, and Ottoman Empires (which would seen as akin to the regular Roman civil wars of our reality.

 

[David Ritz]

I am pretty sure that we have all seen the images of Europe (and especially Germany) after the OTL Second World War. Imagine if it was MUCH worse and the vast majority was abandoned or just never repaired. That is in essence what happened to Italy after the Gothic Wars. Just think of how many of those ruined cities would still look like that in TTL 2000 only much more decayed.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

I can see the Nazis and Communists being the barbarians of the story filling in the vacuum after the First World War tore apart the Hapsburg, German, Russian, and Ottoman Empires (which would seen as akin to the regular Roman civil wars of our reality.

I am pretty sure that we have all seen the images of Europe (and especially Germany) after the OTL Second World War. Imagine if it was MUCH worse and the vast majority was abandoned or just never repaired. That is in essence what happened to Italy after the Gothic Wars. Just think of how many of those ruined cities would still look like that in TTL 2000 only much more decayed.

I wonder if people will say, "Comparing the barbarians to the Nazis is an insult to barbarians?" Despite our image of barbarians as just monstrous brutes, they could also run their kingdoms effectively, and many of their attacks can be chalked up to retribution against Roman excess rather than innate evil. And the barbarians could show mercy and kindness to their enemies sometimes."

"We call the Nazis barbarians. But even the Visigoths showed some kindness to the cities they sacked. Rome was still around after the Visigoths. But nothing was left of Paris when the Nazis were done."

 

[David Ritz]

I wonder if people will say, "Comparing the barbarians to the Nazis is an insult to barbarians?" Despite our image of barbarians as just monstrous brutes, they could also run their kingdoms effectively, and many of their attacks can be chalked up to retribution against Roman excess rather than innate evil. And the barbarians could show mercy and kindness to their enemies sometimes."

"We call the Nazis barbarians. But even the Visigoths showed some kindness to the cities they sacked. Rome was still around after the Visigoths. But nothing was left of Paris when the Nazis were done."

True. And especially the Ostrogoths.

 

[Aluma]

The nazis werent barbarians
A real barbarian analogue would be if Imperial Europe ravaged by it's own wars despite nominally being at the height of its power got conquered by migrating peoples from the fringes of their known world that they failed to completely colonize and assimilate

Think Japan and China eating up Russia, Ethiopia taking the italian colonies, the Ottomans recovering their lost territories, that sort or thing

The Nazis were something else, a direct product of "civilisation"
Their ideology was fully european, taking everything horrible the western civilisation did ever since the times of Rome and turning it into a cosmoview of how things should be and trying to apply it using the technology considered modern at the time to horrifying effects

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

The nazis werent barbarians
A real barbarian analogue would be if Imperial Europe ravaged by it's own wars despite nominally being at the height of its power got conquered by migrating peoples from the fringes of their known world that they failed to completely colonize and assimilate

Think Japan and China eating up Russia, Ethiopia taking the italian colonies, the Ottomans recovering their lost territories, that sort or thing

The Nazis were something else, a direct product of "civilisation"
Their ideology was fully european, taking everything horrible the western civilisation did ever since the times of Rome and turning it into a cosmoview of how things should be and trying to apply it using the technology considered modern at the time to horrifying effects

This is my historiography regarding Nazism: basically, the entire world at the turn of the 20th century believed in things like racism, racial cleansing, Social Darwinism, and nationalism. Hitler and his cronies looked at everything and said, "Let's do it but more."

The very word "civilized" might become very, very dirty ITTL: since it was the Germans' own belief in their "natural" superiority that led them to destroy Europe effectively. I wonder if the romanticization of pre-state cultures might be more common ITTL, since civilization proved to be even more rapacious and cruel.

 

[Aluma]

This is my historiography regarding Nazism: basically, the entire world at the turn of the 20th century believed in things like racism, racial cleansing, Social Darwinism, and nationalism. Hitler and his cronies looked at everything and said, "Let's do it but more."

Pretty much
I would also add that they were also massively romanophiles and - because they brought into a radicalized version of those ideologies - thought everything Europe did during the Columbian Exchange onwards was great with things such as the Atlantic Slave Trade and Manifest Destiny being feats to be replicated, but this time applied to jews and other europeans

The very word "civilized" might become very, very dirty ITTL: since it was the Germans' own belief in their "natural" superiority that led them to destroy Europe effectively. I wonder if the romanticization of pre-state cultures might be more common ITTL, since civilization proved to be even more rapacious and cruel.

Agreed
We already see a toned down version of that with post-war Europe IOTL trying to revise its view on barbarians and reinforce the "noble savage" view of tribal societies

 

[JamesHunter]

I wonder if Central Italy after the Gothic Wars of the mid-6th Century could be considered a comparable description for post-WWII Europe of this reality:

Hard to say, I mean Italy was at least habitable and the first pandemic while horrible wasn't quite on Black death or the Anthrax strike level of constant mortality.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

Agreed
We already see a toned down version of that with post-war Europe IOTL trying to revise its view on barbarians and reinforce the "noble savage" view of tribal societies

I think Cannibal Holocaust has a slightly better take on so-called savages: they commit atrocities, but that is the result of a cycle of violence/self-defense.

But "civilized" man will kill far more for pure greed and entertainment.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

I wonder if people will say, "Comparing the barbarians to the Nazis is an insult to barbarians?" Despite our image of barbarians as just monstrous brutes, they could also run their kingdoms effectively, and many of their attacks can be chalked up to retribution against Roman excess rather than innate evil. And the barbarians could show mercy and kindness to their enemies sometimes."

On the previous thread, a poster wrote that the Mongols and the Tatars at least didn't slaughter those who paid them.

And the Roman Senate was retained until the 600s.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

On the previous thread, a poster wrote that the Mongols and the Tatars at least didn't slaughter those who paid them.

And the Roman Senate was retained until the 600s.

That's ultimately the true horror of ultranationalism: previous empires killed for power, but ultranationalism declares entire groups of people criminals from birth.

The story of Chaim Rumkowski, the head of the ghetto of Lodz, is one that best illustrates the horrors of Nazism: under old school empires, Rumkowski could've kept large numbers of his people alive, and that's why Rumkowski acted the way he did, believing kowtowing to the Nazis would save himself and a few others. But the Nazis took hatred to a new level, and even being useful was no guarantee of survival. Your very existence made you a crime in the eyes of the state.

One could only imagine ITTL how Rumkowski felt, as all the evil shit he did to keep some people alive couldn't even save him.

@CalBear , what happened to Chaim Rumkowski TTL?

 

[CalBear]

That's ultimately the true horror of ultranationalism: previous empires killed for power, but ultranationalism declares entire groups of people criminals from birth.

The story of Chaim Rumkowski, the head of the ghetto of Lodz, is one that best illustrates the horrors of Nazism: under old school empires, Rumkowski could've kept large numbers of his people alive, and that's why Rumkowski acted the way he did, believing kowtowing to the Nazis would save himself and a few others. But the Nazis took hatred to a new level, and even being useful was no guarantee of survival. Your very existence made you a crime in the eyes of the state.

One could only imagine ITTL how Rumkowski felt, as all the evil shit he did to keep some people alive couldn't even save him.

@CalBear , what happened to Chaim Rumkowski TTL?

Met the same fate as nearly every Jew in Europe.

 

[David Ritz]

On the previous thread, a poster wrote that the Mongols and the Tatars at least didn't slaughter those who paid them.

And the Roman Senate was retained until the 600s.

The Senate of Constantinople meanwhile lasted until the Crusader Siege of 1204!

 

[David Ritz]

Met the same fate as nearly every Jew in Europe.

It's nice to see you again CalBear. I wanted to ask if you think my Gothic Wars analogy would be appropriate to describe the state of much of Europe after the TTL Second World War.

 

[CalBear]

It's nice to see you again CalBear. I wanted to ask if you think my Gothic Wars analogy would be appropriate to describe the state of much of Europe after the TTL Second World War.

The Reich occupies a completely unique space in the minds of pretty much the entire "Western" World at this point (ATL 2024).

It is possible that further into the future your analogy might be used by some, although most people are more likely to see the Nazi era as a combination of the Black Death personified and a "modern" version of the Mongol explosion out of the steppes.

 

[David Ritz]

The Reich occupies a completely unique space in the minds of pretty much the entire "Western" World at this point (ATL 2024).

It is possible that further into the future your analogy might be used by some, although most people are more likely to see the Nazi era as a combination of the Black Death personified and a "modern" version of the Mongol explosion out of the steppes.

Alternate History Hub has recently come out with a No Genghis Khan scenario:

 

[Aluma]

Would be interesting to see how TTL would envision a World Without Nazism since that concept is distant even to us and very different from one where the nazis simply lost like
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