What happens in a world without Nazism but with Fascism?

[pompejus]

I'm very glad that autocorrect didn't get West banned as a Nazi.

Don't worry, West wouldn't have gotten banned for it. First of all, it was quit obvious a misstype. Secondly, even if it hadn't been that obvious, Calbear would have first given West a chance to explain himself. Which would have cleared up the misunderstanding. Thirdly, West joined in 2015, in that case it would not have been a banning offense. It would probably been just a kick. I think only trolling out of the gate would have been an immediate ban.

Also, I am not sure the statement on its own is actualy an actionable offense. If West would have meant that a second world war, which included all the horrors of the war would still have been better than a world without the worls war, because it would have mean a world with more anti semitism, continued colonialism, etc. It is something you can actualy defend. I do not agree with it. But I think it is a position you can defend on this board (although there is a big chance Calbear does show up, not as a moderator, but as a board member to tell you why you are wrong) . Only if the statement would have meant that either you did not believe Hitler commited any crimes, or that you agree with those crimes, than it is an actionable offense.

 

[DUWANG]

Usually in these timelines, people assume that a move to the left is broadly inevitable. I think that depends on the individual countries and issues. I do think that without the World Wars, the Europeans would be a lot more likely to cling to their colonies as an example.

We could see a more open Europe for sexuality, ideologies and societal/cultural roles which still thinks that they have a divine/racial right to dominate the colonial world.

 

[DUWANG]

Actually, I have been thinking.
As far as I know the improved relations in Yugoslavia between the Government and the Croats/Slovenes was mainly driven duo to fear of German intervention into the country following the Anschluss.
Now in a scenario where Weimar and thus the Federal State of Austria remains, there wouldn't be a need to make those demographics feel more included. That means Serb domination would be more thorough than in OTL.

Could this result in a Civil War where the Yugoslavs could be pushed to cooperate with the Italians to put down the Slovenes and Croats? Of course the payment of that would be the non Serb (Orthodox) lands that Italy and its puppets (Austria and Hungary) sought.
That means Dalmatia, Slovenia and the small Croatian/Slovene lands that Hungary annexed in OTL.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

We could see a more open Europe for sexuality, ideologies and societal/cultural roles which still thinks that they have a divine/racial right to dominate the colonial world.

Why though?

 

[Seandineen]

Their system might technically fit the OTL definition but they didn't have a Fascist party.

What was the Imperial Rule Assistance Association?

 

[DUWANG]

Why though?

Well already saw a trend for more liberal norms in society before WW2 set it all back.
I don't know much about the other countries, but it was very clear in West Germany, where Adenauer and the bunch clearly wanted a more conservative Christian society compared to Weimar. Specifically in regards to homosexuality and women's rights.

Without the war, those trends would surely live longer, even if a conservative push back comes in lighter form.

And why the idea of still thinking they have a right to dominate? Because it's nice to be king, simple as.
Just use the simple "For me, but not for thee" in regards to independence.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Well already saw a trend for more liberal norms in society before WW2 set it all back.
I don't know much about the other countries, but it was very clear in West Germany, where Adenauer and the bunch clearly wanted a more conservative Christian society compared to Weimar. Specifically in regards to homosexuality and women's rights.

Without the war, those trends would surely live longer, even if a conservative push back comes in lighter form.

And why the idea of still thinking they have a right to dominate? Because it's nice to be king, simple as.
Just use the simple "For me, but not for thee" in regards to independence.

I don’t think WW2 ”set it back”. If anything, I think it sped up the death of social conservatism. Liberalization might still take place. Especially in more liberal countries like France, Britain and the United States, but I imagine that they’d be slower to take effect.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Actually, I have been thinking.
As far as I know the improved relations in Yugoslavia between the Government and the Croats/Slovenes was mainly driven duo to fear of German intervention into the country following the Anschluss.
Now in a scenario where Weimar and thus the Federal State of Austria remains, there wouldn't be a need to make those demographics feel more included. That means Serb domination would be more thorough than in OTL.

Could this result in a Civil War where the Yugoslavs could be pushed to cooperate with the Italians to put down the Slovenes and Croats? Of course the payment of that would be the non Serb (Orthodox) lands that Italy and its puppets (Austria and Hungary) sought.
That means Dalmatia, Slovenia and the small Croatian/Slovene lands that Hungary annexed in OTL.

They would be angry but starting a revolution isn't something I think would happen also Serb domination isn't that felt since Yugoslavia was a very rural country which also makes it harder to start a revolution, collaborating with the Italians will never be done unless they have some serious problems in putting down the revolt.

 

[DUWANG]

They would be angry but starting a revolution isn't something I think would happen also Serb domination isn't that felt since Yugoslavia was a very rural country which also makes it harder to start a revolution, collaborating with the Italians will never be done unless they have some serious problems in putting down the revolt.

Could we perhaps see the problems boiling up till the late 40s until a Croat revolution is possible?

 

[Seandineen]

The King if he can stay sober, could be an important aspect of promoting national unity

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Could we perhaps see the problems boiling up till the late 40s until a Croat revolution is possible?

Maybe but I think that if there is a Croat/Slovene Revolution it will be in Italy, while they certainly wouldn't like the fact that Serbs are governing them it would still be preferrable to Italian rule. Also at some point Germany will probably manage to annex Austria which combined with rising tensions might make the Serbs do the same reforms as OTL. The Serbs showed that they were willing to compromise.

 

[Falecius]

Instead of WW2, I think we are still likely to get 'The Great Pacific War' with Japan as bad guy. Would their atrocity-ridden conduct be enough for fascism to be viewed as more than just 'dickish'?

Probably not, depending on how things go. Bet it'd be chalked up to "oriental barbarism" or something.

 

[DUWANG]

Maybe but I think that if there is a Croat/Slovene Revolution it will be in Italy, while they certainly wouldn't like the fact that Serbs are governing them it would still be preferrable to Italian rule. Also at some point Germany will probably manage to annex Austria which combined with rising tensions might make the Serbs do the same reforms as OTL. The Serbs showed that they were willing to compromise.

Do the Croats and Slovenes even have enough of a population in the Italian parts to start a revolution?

Not sure of Anschluss would come so soon.
The only reason why Italy allowed it was because it was the only way to find an Ally in Hitler who looked up to Mussolini and because the Nazis gave up on the Germans in South Tyrol.

Now while even a democratic Weimar Germany wouldn't be part of the Anglo-French club and probably try to sell it's own sphere of influence. I am not sure if that would be enough for Italy.
Some other points against Anschluss would be that unlike the Nazis with their grand goals in the east, Weimar wouldn't so easily give up South Tyrol's Germans.
That and a surviving Dollfuß would still be a loyal ally to Italy. Something that I don't think Mussolini wants to give up.
Not to mention than neither Dollfuß nor the members of the Fatherland Front would be thrilled to live in a "Prussian Germany dominated by Godless Protestants and liberal capitalist!"
Remember, their view was "Austrians were Germans. But the better Germans!".

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Do the Croats and Slovenes even have enough of a population in the Italian parts to start a revolution?

I doubt but if there is some form of resistance movement it would be against the Italians instead of the Serbs, I'm pretty sure they were more dissatisfied with the first ones.

Not sure of Anschluss would come so soon.
The only reason why Italy allowed it was because it was the only way to find an Ally in Hitler who looked up to Mussolini and because the Nazis gave up on the Germans in South Tyrol.

Now while even a democratic Weimar Germany wouldn't be part of the Anglo-French club and probably try to sell it's own sphere of influence. I am not sure if that would be enough for Italy.
Some other points against Anschluss would be that unlike the Nazis with their grand goals in the east, Weimar wouldn't so easily give up South Tyrol's Germans.
That and a surviving Dollfuß would still be a loyal ally to Italy. Something that I don't think Mussolini wants to give up.
Not to mention than neither Dollfuß nor the members of the Fatherland Front would be thrilled to live in a "Prussian Germany dominated by Godless Protestants and liberal capitalist!"
Remember, their view was "Austrians were Germans. But the better Germans!".

Apart from Italy the Allies don't really have a reason not to allow the Anschluss and while the government doesn't want to become a part of Germany the Austrians do; it will take a few decades but at some point the Anschluss would probably still happen since Dollfuß cannot keep the Germans at bay indefinitely and if there are fascists in power in Germany they probably wouldn't shy away from assassination at some point if Dollfuß is becoming too annoying.

 

[DUWANG]

I doubt but if there is some form of resistance movement it would be against the Italians instead of the Serbs, I'm pretty sure they were more dissatisfied with the first ones.

Apart from Italy the Allies don't really have a reason not to allow the Anschluss and while the government doesn't want to become a part of Germany the Austrians do; it will take a few decades but at some point the Anschluss would probably still happen since Dollfuß cannot keep the Germans at bay indefinitely and if there are fascists in power in Germany they probably wouldn't shy away from assassination at some point if Dollfuß is becoming too annoying.

Well they do, or at least France does.
From an economical stand point, if Germany annexes Austria, then we could potentially see in the coming decades a Germany which has almost twice the population as France as well as a stronger industry.
Such a big power in the economic middle of Europe would be something that the British and most especially French would dread.
Although in a twist compared to OTL, I would expect France to try to prevent it longer.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Well they do, or at least France does.
From an economical stand point, if Germany annexes Austria, then we could potentially see in the coming decades a Germany which has almost twice the population as France as well as a stronger industry.
Such a big power in the economic middle of Europe would be something that the British and most especially French would dread.
Although in a twist compared to OTL, I would expect France to try to prevent it longer.

France and GB allowed Germany to have this and much more IOTL, without Germany being so agressive the Allies don't really have a reason to constantly try to prevent it, they can get Austria if they aren't purchasing 5000 "tractors".

 

[DUWANG]

France and GB allowed Germany to have this and much more IOTL, without Germany being so agressive the Allies don't really have a reason to constantly try to prevent it, they can get Austria if they aren't purchasing 5000 "tractors".

Yeah but didn't Hitler for a time stopped the constant "This treaty sucks and the rest of you too!" that Weimar did? As far as I remember the Polish viewed Hitler for a time as a lesser threat than the democratic governments of Weimar.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Yeah but didn't Hitler for a time stopped the constant "This treaty sucks and the rest of you too!" that Weimar did? As far as I remember the Polish viewed Hitler for a time as a lesser threat than the democratic governments of Weimar.

But Poland won't really be able to prevent Germany from conquering Austria, the Allies don't really have a reason to constantly oppose Germany since they don't want war.
Anyways if there is still Weimar Germany they won't try to annex Austria, having a government every 9 month prevents any long term planning and economic crisis will mean Germany is busy with other issues.
I don't know what other fascists would do about their relationship with Poland.

 

[DUWANG]

But Poland won't really be able to prevent Germany from conquering Austria, the Allies don't really have a reason to constantly oppose Germany since they don't want war.
Anyways if there is still Weimar Germany they won't try to annex Austria, having a government every 9 month prevents any long term planning and economic crisis will mean Germany is busy with other issues.
I don't know what other fascists would do about their relationship with Poland.

Well to be fair, if Weimar can last that long, then it should be prove that the political situation should have somewhat stabilized.
So we can imagine longer lasting governments. Perhaps fully 4 year lasting ones.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Well to be fair, if Weimar can last that long, then it should be prove that the political situation should have somewhat stabilized.
So we can imagine longer lasting governments. Perhaps fully 4 year lasting ones.

Probably not so soon, it would stabilize eventually but one unfortunate death could send you back in chaos.