TL-191: Filling the Gaps

[Lalli]

If someone (me lol) had their own ideas for post-SGW events in the timeline, but which can't be expressed via photos in that thread or the pop culture one, would this thread be a good place to dump them? I'm slowly but surely coming up with my own alternative postwar timeline inspired by yet different from David's but I can't think of a good outlet, haha.

It would be indeed great to see some post-GW2 TL. Actually pretty amazing that there has not been many post-GW2 TLs or at least I have noticed only DbE's famous After the End and one another pretty short-lived attempt.

I have too some ideas but not really been able to achieve such thing.

 

[Inferno Agent]

It would be indeed great to see some post-GW2 TL. Actually pretty amazing that there has not been many post-GW2 TLs or at least I have noticed only DbE's famous After the End and one another pretty short-lived attempt.

I have too some ideas but not really been able to achieve such thing.

Thanks! Glad to hear there's an audience for such a thing at least, heh. Maybe its own thread would be best though, so as not to clutter this one? I'd enjoy seeing your ideas too.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

Cross-post from After the End on my thoughts for how Portugal staying neutral during GW1 could've affected it's them positively or not:

I was revisiting this Q&A regarding Portugal after researching their role in WWI, and thought that though while they would definitely benefit form staying neutral, I'd respectfully disagree with this interpretation and thought to present my own plausible argument for such. Even though Portugal's decision to join the war IOTL seemed like a good idea to defend the homeland and their colonies by having the protection of their British allies, it turned out to be a short-sighted decision and led to more chaos and instability in the fragile First Republic. Though staying neutral would have benefited them, I would disagree there as the conditions and chronic instability of the First Republic that led to its fall and eventual transformation into the Estado Novo regime were already present since the beginning, and even before it with the decline of the monarchy. While their entry into the war, along with strongman Sidónio Pais briefly seeing power in a coup and becoming president and prime minister, accelerated its eventual fall, I believe its absence would've only delayed the 1926 coup and would've eventually happened later, especially during the early Great Depression with the rise of actionism.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

He was a Group Leader (Major General). In my headcanon there was probably a small handful of people above him. As a Group Leader he actually outranked the Commander of the Army of West Texas (Brigadier General Ling). It's probable that he was de-facto Commander of all Freedom Party Guard troops in the state of Texas (Camp Determination, the training camp near Fort Worth and any other Camp stateand the Armed Freedom Party Guard unit)

Building on my immediate prior point, I'm guessing that the ranks and positions within the Freedom Party Guard apparatus probably weren't strictly defined. You've got the Attorney General at the top since the FPG all appear to answer directly to the AG's office directly. There is probably an Assistant Attorney General for Population Reduction Operations, or something like that that might be an inspector in terms of government bureaucrats, but it always looks like Koenig preferred to go straight to the Camp Commandants whenever he pleased so it's just as likely Koenig ran the concentration camps directly personally.

I wrote at best there were definitely high ranking Freedom Party Guards Officers, like Group Leaders and stuff in command of the detachments of Armed Freedom Party Guards that were on the frontlines, plus the Stalwarts and Freedom Party Guards that were handling internal security.

Now had the CSA won, I could easily see Pinkard getting a promotion to Chief Group Leader or something like that and overseeing the final phases of the full Population Reduction.. after that Koenig would probably tap him for something else in the Justice Department itself.

Been a couple months since I've been meaning to respond to this, but I'll give my thoughts. Well, it seems that Pinkard was basically the Higher FPG and Police Leader of Texas, unless there are further divisions for area command. That also would have to take into account the state attorneys general and whether or not they were fully freedomized and part of the rank and file structure of the Party like a gauleiter, or if they were nominal positions. Also, it seems that the position of concentration camps inspector was held by someone else. That equivalent position would be under the Department of Justice as Director of the Bureau of Prisons, to borrow from the U.S. cabinet, to run all camps designated by background. Plus, Pinkard strikes me more as the crazed ideological die-hard he made to be from his inspiration in Rudolf Höss and as well as Theodor Eicke for making the concentration camp system into the effective system of terror it became. Doesn't strike me as "ruthless bureaucrat" with Richard Glücks as being the person inheriting and making tweaks to an already efficient system.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Dragging this thread back out...

Regarding the annexation of Canada.
Instead of the whole country (sans quebec) but would just taking British Columbia just be enough. Connecting Alaska to the US proper?

 

[MisterP]

Dragging this thread back out...

Regarding the annexation of Canada.
Instead of the whole country (sans quebec) but would just taking British Columbia just be enough. Connecting Alaska to the US proper?

interesting proposal: from what I've seen there's no massive differences between BC and the Rest of Canada; War Plan Red went after all regions of Canada equally, and the Prairie Provinces will have no fewer rural settlers from the German and Russian Empires as OTL (so the McGregors are an exception)

even a puppet US RoQ seems arguably space-batty since TTL London invested in a more integrationist approach to training (French Quebecois trained with Anglos), and "Canadianness" in the sense of "not US" is going to be cultivated a mare usque ad mare; initial Quebecois nationalism really surged OTL with the 1917 Conscription Crisis

(and of course canon is just Turt remembering at the last minute "oh, yeah, they're in Canada too, let's have Japan and Imperial Russia invade or whatever")

 

[vesica]

Dragging this thread back out...

Regarding the annexation of Canada.
Instead of the whole country (sans quebec) but would just taking British Columbia just be enough. Connecting Alaska to the US proper?

Taking all of Canada was necessary to avoid Britain keeping a foothold on the North American continent. Yes Quebec is independent, and Americans probably gave Labrador to Quebec, but they still need to deal with the Maritimes & Newfoundland. Nova Scotia is home to Halifax which in the early 1900s was thr largest deep water port in North America... and indeed in the entire Atlantic. The Americans are not going to let the British keep that good a port and a free jump off point. And on the other side of Quebec is the Hudson Bay which still allows summer access to Churchill Manitoba and northern Ontario... which is more then enough time to continously transport anything required to he a pain in the ass to the Americans. Even if the US was to ignore Saskatchewan and Alberta, the US needs Ontario, BC, Manitoba and the Maritimes at a minimum.

 

[PsychoNeo]

Am I the only one who thinks it's impossible for there not to be a Republican President after the 1881 War despite their reputation? I understand the damage and all, but surely they can always change things up, like the Democrats did when for a while they were associated with the Confederates. Wouldn't the US be tired of living under Democrats and vote Republican every now and then?

 

[kernel]

Am I the only one who thinks it's impossible for there not to be a Republican President after the 1881 War despite their reputation? I understand the damage and all, but surely they can always change things up, like the Democrats did when for a while they were associated with the Confederates. Wouldn't the US be tired of living under Democrats and vote Republican every now and then?

Probably people vote for various factions of the Democratic party (or even the socialists) when there is a need for political change. I remmber reading in the books that Teddy adovates for the Square Deal program, indicating that he has some progressive policy positions in TL-191, so the Democrats might be divided into Bourbons and Progressives like OTL.

I think the biggest reason why the Republicans never made it back to the presidency was not because they lost two wars to the South, but rather because the party split with the left wing going to the Socialists and the right wing going to the Democrats. This leaves the remaining of the Republicans in a wierd spot, as they don't really have a clear ideological stance nor the numbers to really affect policy. When the Socialists become the main ideological alternative to the Democrats, the Republicans are relegated to the status of a minor party.

In my headcanon, the Republicans in the late 19th and early 20th century become an agrarian party in the Midwest (sort of like the Grange Movement) advocating for Farmer's Subsidies and lower tarrifs, but other than that having widely divergent policy views that mostly fall along the center to center-left.

 

[J.J.Jameson88]

It's mentioned that Stassen was the 1944 Republican nominee. It would be funny if he's the perennial candidate who somehow wins one day to the utter astonishment of everyone (including himself). Kind of like a "The Mouse That Roared" situation.

 

[Lalli]

Am I the only one who thinks it's impossible for there not to be a Republican President after the 1881 War despite their reputation? I understand the damage and all, but surely they can always change things up, like the Democrats did when for a while they were associated with the Confederates. Wouldn't the US be tired of living under Democrats and vote Republican every now and then?

I am actually amazed that Republicans were existibng as somehow serious party yet in 1944 taking that they have lost every election since 1880's. And that there is only two Republican presidents is not so amazing. They have lost two wars and they have just damaged United States. Perhaps Democrats had several factions until Socialists became serious party.

 

[MisterP]

I rationalize the TL-191 (191.2?) GOP as a relict, but as enough of a force in most Northron states to leave them basically 33-33-33: they're solid WASPs and probably isolationist; during the 1884-1920 party era their dominance would be restricted to New England and the areas of Minnesota and Michigan settled by Yankees--Calvinist and Old Dutch; Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Maine (later a Klan stronghold OTL) would become swing states with the militarist Dems

my revision's candidates are Maj. Gen. Garfield 1884 (lost, but not a knockout), John Sherman 1888 (as close as 1876 OTL), 1892 they end up in third place behind the Populists' Weaver, Benjamin Harrison 1896 (a tie with Bryan and the winner Reed), and after that a lot of AH no-names like Fairbanks 1904, Root 1912,[1] Leonard Wood 1920, Charles G. Dawes 1924, Hoover 1928,[2] Borah 1932, Dewey-Taft 1940 ... and then I stopped caring about the TL altogether

I also reformulated Turt's Dems as the "National Union" Party--revanchist, pro-Hyphenated-American, one big machine party (where commoners don't threaten to plunge the nation into Red Anarchy by daring to ask their elected superiors for anything); but despite flogging Remembrance since 1882 they're sorta haunted by their longtime reputation as the Slaveocracy's Northern poodles, imposing the laws of the unacknowledged traitors on the men who'd actually fought and bled for the nation after '62; if Bryan becomes a big figure TTL he'll shift the Dems to Populism, building a base that'll defect to the S.P.A. as the century turns--but also provide a base for Mr. Square Deal that gets Roosevelt in over Debs

[1] I think he was a figure in some Gore Vidal novel
[2] his presence makes SOME sense since he won the primaries OTL, while Cool Cal has nothing to offer TTL's Dems facing off against a S.P.A. with a cohesive agenda after both the Great War and the Crash: you lose!

 

[jack_donaghy_is_the_shado]

I'm unsure if this is the right place, but was there a tl191 equivalent of the Spanish flu pandemic?

 

[Jett-Power]

I'm unsure if this is the right place, but was there a tl191 equivalent of the Spanish flu pandemic?

Yes, https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/1918_Flu_Pandemic#1918_Flu_Pandemic_in_Southern_Victory

 

[Tiro]

Just wanted to return from my wanderings to wish the T-191 community and the wider forums a Very Merry Christmas - as well as send Season's Greetings to those who celebrate other traditions at this time of year (Except the Tentacle Terrors: Lovecraft is a chilling portent of things to come, not a 'To Do' list!).

 

[floyd22]

Taking all of Canada was necessary to avoid Britain keeping a foothold on the North American continent. Yes Quebec is independent, and Americans probably gave Labrador to Quebec, but they still need to deal with the Maritimes & Newfoundland. Nova Scotia is home to Halifax which in the early 1900s was the largest deep water port in North America... and indeed in the entire Atlantic. The Americans are not going to let the British keep that good a port and a free jump off point. And on the other side of Quebec is the Hudson Bay which still allows summer access to Churchill Manitoba and northern Ontario... which is more then enough time to continously transport anything required to he a pain in the ass to the Americans. Even if the US was to ignore Saskatchewan and Alberta, the US needs Ontario, BC, Manitoba and the Maritimes at a minimum.

If I remember correctly, Quebec isn't actually "independent;" it's a puppet state propped up by the U.S. after they conquered Canada. As for the rest of the territory, it's only the U.S.'s via right of conquest.

I am actually amazed that Republicans were existibng as somehow serious party yet in 1944 taking that they have lost every election since 1880's. And that there is only two Republican presidents is not so amazing. They have lost two wars and they have just damaged United States. Perhaps Democrats had several factions until Socialists became serious party.

Yes, it exists, but it's essentially a minor party, since both Presidents who fought the Confederates and lost were both Republicans.

Does anyone have any idea as to Republican Presidential and Vice ~ Presidential Candidates in the elections from 1865 onwards?

 

[vesica]

If I remember correctly, Quebec isn't actually "independent;" it's a puppet state propped up by the U.S. after they conquered Canada. As for the rest of the territory, it's only the U.S.'s via right of conquest.

They are nominally independent as the Kingdom of Poland and the Kingdom of Ukraine are in eastern Europe I agree. It's absolutely entirely reliant on the US for its continued existence, though obviously the US is more then willing to let them run themselves.

And aye I agree the rest of Canada does belong to the US via Right of Conquest, but it's more so I don't think the US War, State or Interior Departments know what to do with them. As mentioned the US had a vested interest in keeping the Maritimes and Newfoundland.. they are cut off from the rest of Canada and probably would have come under completely US and Quebec dominance after the war. But the rest of Canada from Ontario to BC... i don't think Eben into the 1940s anyone in any Administration had any idea what the long term goal for the former provinces were.

 

[Fire and shadow]

Did Turtledove ever say anything about continuing the series?

 

[Jett-Power]

Did Turtledove ever say anything about continuing the series?

I don't think he did. If I remember correctly, he said on Twitter that he wasn't sure how the Cold War would go.

 

[floyd22]

Did Turtledove ever say anything about continuing the series?

Not to my knowledge; as far as I'm aware, he's long since moved on.

Just out of personal interest, does anyone have any ideas for who the Republican and Socialist Party candidates in the TL ~ 191 Presidential Elections from 1865 onwards?