TL-191: After the End

[Batguy01]

While I overall liked this TL, I also have several criticisms on this scenario. Mainly on Austria-Hungary surviving and returning into being a functional state somewhat.

I'm convinced on looking further into the Habsburg's decline in political power that the Austrian Empire was destined (for lack of a better term) to collapse. Even with them winning both World Wars/Great Wars.

Like I know David once told me that Austria-Hungary collapsing was part of the original plan and he told me that victory in both GWs and support from Germany is what caused the Austrian Empire to survive into at least 2162. Plus TL-191 is essentially a world where imperialism and empire building sort of won, (at least in the 20th Century).

Even then how present day Austria-Hungary in TTL functions is a bit laughable. Since when the Austrian Empire became Austria-Hungary, the Hungarian half of the Duel Monarchy was essentially becoming its own country separate from the Austrian half (apart from having the same monarch, army, and foreign policy) and blocking any reform within the Empire that the Monarchy wanted to implement.

I know that I most likely have not mentioned several other reasons (like nationalism), but I see the collapse of Austria-Hungary as inevitable.

 

[Lalli]

While I overall liked this TL, I also have several criticisms on this scenario. Mainly on Austria-Hungary surviving and returning into being a functional state somewhat.

I'm convinced on looking further into the Habsburg's decline in political power that the Austrian Empire was destined (for lack of a better term) to collapse. Even with them winning both World Wars/Great Wars.

Like I know David once told me that Austria-Hungary collapsing was part of the original plan and he told me that victory in both GWs and support from Germany is what caused the Austrian Empire to survive into at least 2162. Plus TL-191 is essentially a world where imperialism and empire building sort of won, (at least in the 20th Century).

Even then how present day Austria-Hungary in TTL functions is a bit laughable. Since when the Austrian Empire became Austria-Hungary, the Hungarian half of the Duel Monarchy was essentially becoming its own country separate from the Austrian half (apart from having the same monarch, army, and foreign policy) and blocking any reform within the Empire that the Monarchy wanted to implement.

I know that I most likely have not mentioned several other reasons (like nationalism), but I see the collapse of Austria-Hungary as inevitable.

I don't think that collapse of A-H was inevitable. It had already won two world wars and even in OTL Habsburgs were pretty popular among most of minorities very close of the end. ITTL it could had survived pretty easily. Yes, the last book mentions nationalist terrorists who turn as suicide bombers (IMO suicide bombing is bit unbelieveable) but A-H could still manage to survive.

 

[AK47Productions]

The big error was probably not renaming it the Danubian Empire and consolidating A-H into a series of provinces for each of the major ethnic groups (Austrians, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Croatians and Serbians). Austria-Hungary surviving I can buy, as said above it's collapse wasn't inevitable especially with back to back Great War victories and a powerful Germany that has no interest in ethnic unrest in their back yard.

Besides it's also like I said, this is a world where imperialism has won half way. No doubt the Evidenzbureau has been able to get away with arranging for the deaths or "disappearances" of more than a few independence activists across the Empire without the wider populace noticing or even caring.

 

[David bar Elias]

There is indeed no reason why Texas should not rejoin the Union, unless, of course, you exclude the will of TL 191's counterpart of the Supreme Chicken.

Does this interest you, as an idea for an alternate Japan?

Japan (Cherry, Plum, and Chrysanthemum)

Japan (Japanese: ﾜｺｸ (和國) Wakoku), officially known as the Republic of Japan (Japanese: ﾀﾞｲﾜﾐﾝｺｸ (大和民國) Daiwa Minkoku), is an island nation in East Asia. Located in the Pacific Ocean, it lies to the east of the Sea of Japan, the Soviet Union, Manchuria, Korea, and China, stretching from Karafuto...

althistory.fandom.com

Are there any TLs which feature a better relationship between the United States and the USSR? I am also hoping that the likes of Vladimir Putin, if he exists in TL 1919, never came to power.

Also, I know this sounds silly, but did the sheep have a hand [or, rather, a hoof] in the naming of Baaa ~ harat?

Finally, what was the fate of Trentham Hall in Staffordshire in your AU? If you've never heard of it, the Shah of Persia, Naser al ~ Din, visited the Hall in 1873 and was heard saying to the future King Edward VII afterwards that it was, quote, "too grand for a subject; you'll have his head off when you come to the throne." Its demolition in OTL is currently regarded by many historians as a cultural tragedy.

It seems like an interesting alternate version of Japan. I don’t think that I can offer significant commentary on the plausibility of such a scenario.

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I don’t know about any timelines that feature better diplomatic relations between the USA and USSR. However, one series of future history and science fiction from our world was the CoDominium series by Jerry Pournelle, as well as other authors. It had as its basis the idea of the USA and the USSR putting aside their differences to form a supranational alliance called the CoDominium, which dominates the world and leads the initial colonization of space, before the alliance ultimately collapses. Unless I’m mistaken, a legacy of the former CoDominium is that a number of planets in the successor human civilizations are either of US or Soviet descent.

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Vladimir Putin doesn’t exist in TTL.

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Trentham Hall wasn’t demolished in TTL. By 2024, a restoration and refurbishment of the site has been completed.

 

[Thon Taddeo]

While I overall liked this TL, I also have several criticisms on this scenario. Mainly on Austria-Hungary surviving and returning into being a functional state somewhat.

I'm convinced on looking further into the Habsburg's decline in political power that the Austrian Empire was destined (for lack of a better term) to collapse. Even with them winning both World Wars/Great Wars.

Like I know David once told me that Austria-Hungary collapsing was part of the original plan and he told me that victory in both GWs and support from Germany is what caused the Austrian Empire to survive into at least 2162. Plus TL-191 is essentially a world where imperialism and empire building sort of won, (at least in the 20th Century).

Even then how present day Austria-Hungary in TTL functions is a bit laughable. Since when the Austrian Empire became Austria-Hungary, the Hungarian half of the Duel Monarchy was essentially becoming its own country separate from the Austrian half (apart from having the same monarch, army, and foreign policy) and blocking any reform within the Empire that the Monarchy wanted to implement.

I know that I most likely have not mentioned several other reasons (like nationalism), but I see the collapse of Austria-Hungary as inevitable.

AH's survival is one of the most plausible parts of the timeline. The fact is that nationalism was a lot weaker in AH than most people realize, and that most nationalists were calling for greater autonomy, not independence, remaining kaisertreue until very late in 1918.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3q56w7

 

[CASSICTOR2]

Were there Japanese hideouts after the fourth Pacific war concluded? Because there were thousands of Japanese soldiers still fighting and raiding villages in the Asian continent for decades most famously cases of Hiroo Onoda thought that World War II still raging in 1974. So there were a equivalent of this in the fourth pacific war with alot more militarism for the next decades

 

[floyd22]

It seems like an interesting alternate version of Japan. I don’t think that I can offer significant commentary on the plausibility of such a scenario.

-
I don’t know about any timelines that feature better diplomatic relations between the USA and USSR. However, one series of future history and science fiction from our world was the CoDominium series by Jerry Pournelle, as well as other authors. It had as its basis the idea of the USA and the USSR putting aside their differences to form a supranational alliance called the CoDominium, which dominates the world and leads the initial colonization of space, before the alliance ultimately collapses. Unless I’m mistaken, a legacy of the former CoDominium is that a number of planets in the successor human civilizations are either of US or Soviet descent.

-
Vladimir Putin doesn’t exist in TTL.

-
Trentham Hall wasn’t demolished in TTL. By 2024, a restoration and refurbishment of the site has been completed.

Phewph, I am glad to hear that about him.

Yes, it is certainly an interesting version. There are very few althists that try to imagine that country without its Emperors.

How's this as a scenario regarding detente between the USA and USSR over the Space Race? As with the other scenario, these are not written by me; I am sharing them with you because I thought you might like to read them!

Space Race Didn't End

The President Richard Milhouse Nixon was not a big supporter of the Space Program. It was known (in OTL) as he entered the Presidency that he wanted to cut the Apollo missions as soon as possible. He felt that it was a waste of money and he wanted to concentrate on the Vietnam War and the poor...

althistory.fandom.com

What became of Blenheim Palace [the ancestral home of the Churchills] in this AU? From what I understand, in OTL, the Germans were planning to use the Palace as the HQ for Southern England had they invaded and occupied the country.

 

[GeorgeUK]

What became of Frank Richards ITTL?
And what of Coca-Cola and Pepsi?
How were England's famous public schools (e.g. Eton, Harrow) affected by the events of TTL?

 

[Lalli]

And what of Coca-Cola and Pepsi?

Taking that both are from Southern states their fates are going to be intresting if any such iconic brand is ever invented. I would assume that coca-Cola and pepsi/some another equalement wouldn't be really popular unless Americans find way to turn them as northerner brand.

 

[Lochnessmoonster]

And what of Coca-Cola and Pepsi?
How were England's famous public

The books do mention Yankee Cola, an American soft drink, and the Confederacy's own Dr. Hopper. Yankee Cola probably takes the place of OTL's Coke, albeit with a different recipe, while I imagine Dr. Hopper surviving into the modern day much like Fanta.

 

[David bar Elias]

Were there Japanese hideouts after the fourth Pacific war concluded? Because there were thousands of Japanese soldiers still fighting and raiding villages in the Asian continent for decades most famously cases of Hiroo Onoda thought that World War II still raging in 1974. So there were a equivalent of this in the fourth pacific war with alot more militarism for the next decades

There were individual Japanese soldiers, especially in the Philippines and Southeast Asia, who tried to hold out against different national governments after the end of the Fourth Pacific War. These holdouts gradually faded after the war, with some surrendering and others disappearing altogether.

 

[David bar Elias]

What became of Blenheim Palace [the ancestral home of the Churchills] in this AU? From what I understand, in OTL, the Germans were planning to use the Palace as the HQ for Southern England had they invaded and occupied the country.

By 2024, Blenheim Palace is still the home of the Dukes of Marlborough. As in our world, Blenheim Palace is open to visitors.

 

[David bar Elias]

What became of Frank Richards ITTL?
And what of Coca-Cola and Pepsi?
How were England's famous public schools (e.g. Eton, Harrow) affected by the events of TTL?

The analogue to Frank Richards in TTL was Anson Richards, born on a slightly different date compared to our world. Richards, like others of his generation, was subject to a mandatory period of service in the US military. In 1914, Richards was drafted into the US Army. He was killed in action in Manitoba in 1915.

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By 2024, Yankee Cola is the dominant soda brand in the United States, to the point of enjoying a near monopoly on the domestic US market.

Dr Hopper, which was once popular in the Confederacy, was no longer produced after the fall of the CSA. The assets that had once belonged to its parent company were acquired by Yankee Cola, with the support of the Dewey administration, in 1947.

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Under the Coalition regime in the 1930s and 1940s, the education system in the United Kingdom was shaped to fit the ideological prerogatives of the government. The public schools in the nation were not exempted from a national curriculum that glorified the leaders of the regime and was also anti-socialist, anti-German, and anti-US.

The public schools were impacted by immediate economic recession in Britain after the end of the Second Great War, as well as the long period of economic austerity that lasted until the early 1960s. The postwar governments of the Labour Party emphasized the improvement of the education system for their working class constituencies, although more radical proposals by some Labour backbenchers to sharply curtail or abolish the public schools were not seriously considered by any of the postwar prime ministers. The postwar Labour governments did attempt to draw more people into the highest ranks of the government and civil service from educational institutions that were considered relatively free from the worst of the former Coalition regime’s ideology.

By 2024, the British public schools still exist, but in a different political and social environment compared to our world.

 

[Lochnessmoonster]

By 2024, Yankee Cola is the dominant soda brand in the United States, to the point of enjoying a near monopoly on the domestic US market.

Does Yankee Cola experience popularity outside the USA, if not to the same scale as Coca-Cola in OTL? Are there any other soda brands that could spark an alternate version of the Cola Wars?

 

[GeorgeUK]

The analogue to Frank Richards in TTL was Anson Richards, born on a slightly different date compared to our world. Richards, like others of his generation, was subject to a mandatory period of service in the US military. In 1914, Richards was drafted into the US Army. He was killed in action in Manitoba in 1915.

-
By 2024, Yankee Cola is the dominant soda brand in the United States, to the point of enjoying a near monopoly on the domestic US market.

Dr Hopper, which was once popular in the Confederacy, was no longer produced after the fall of the CSA. The assets that had once belonged to its parent company were acquired by Yankee Cola, with the support of the Dewey administration, in 1947.

-
Under the Coalition regime in the 1930s and 1940s, the education system in the United Kingdom was shaped to fit the ideological prerogatives of the government. The public schools in the nation were not exempted from a national curriculum that glorified the leaders of the regime and was also anti-socialist, anti-German, and anti-US.

The public schools were impacted by immediate economic recession in Britain after the end of the Second Great War, as well as the long period of economic austerity that lasted until the early 1960s. The postwar governments of the Labour Party emphasized the improvement of the education system for their working class constituencies, although more radical proposals by some Labour backbenchers to sharply curtail or abolish the public schools were not seriously considered by any of the postwar prime ministers. The postwar Labour governments did attempt to draw more people into the highest ranks of the government and civil service from educational institutions that were considered relatively free from the worst of the former Coalition regime’s ideology.

By 2024, the British public schools still exist, but in a different political and social environment compared to our world.

The Frank Richards I was thinking of was the one who wrote the "Billy Bunter" stories IOTL.

 

[floyd22]

The analogue to Frank Richards in TTL was Anson Richards, born on a slightly different date compared to our world. Richards, like others of his generation, was subject to a mandatory period of service in the US military. In 1914, Richards was drafted into the US Army. He was killed in action in Manitoba in 1915.

-
By 2024, Yankee Cola is the dominant soda brand in the United States, to the point of enjoying a near monopoly on the domestic US market.

Dr Hopper, which was once popular in the Confederacy, was no longer produced after the fall of the CSA. The assets that had once belonged to its parent company were acquired by Yankee Cola, with the support of the Dewey administration, in 1947.

-
Under the Coalition regime in the 1930s and 1940s, the education system in the United Kingdom was shaped to fit the ideological prerogatives of the government. The public schools in the nation were not exempted from a national curriculum that glorified the leaders of the regime and was also anti-socialist, anti-German, and anti-US.

The public schools were impacted by immediate economic recession in Britain after the end of the Second Great War, as well as the long period of economic austerity that lasted until the early 1960s. The postwar governments of the Labour Party emphasized the improvement of the education system for their working class constituencies, although more radical proposals by some Labour backbenchers to sharply curtail or abolish the public schools were not seriously considered by any of the postwar prime ministers. The postwar Labour governments did attempt to draw more people into the highest ranks of the government and civil service from educational institutions that were considered relatively free from the worst of the former Coalition regime’s ideology.

By 2024, the British public schools still exist, but in a different political and social environment compared to our world.

Does this mean that the British Class system was, hopefully, if not eliminated entirely, at least greatly lessened by the effects of the Great Wars? [in which case I assume some of the aristocratic houses would, just as in OTL, have fought tooth and nail to preserve their aristocratic privileges and traditions when change started to come]

What was the ultimate fate of the painting The Emperor Napoleon in his Study at the Tuileries by Jacques ~ Louis David? From what I understand, the painting was bought by Archibald Primrose, the 5th Earl of Roesbery, in 1882 from Hamilton Palace, where it had hung since its [the painting's] completion in 1812.

Hamilton Palace is another country house which was widely acknowledged as one of Britain's grandest houses and whose demolition is looked back on by historians as one of the greatest losses to national heritages in the UK; from what I found out online, the building was demolished when it was discovered that coal works beneath the house were threatening its structural integrity, the building hadn't been updated since the 1870s, and the Hamiltons themselves had moved out of the Palace in 1890. Also, large aritsocratic houses fell out of fashion in the 20th Century because of the prohibitive cost of their upkeep.

 

[bula]

Is there any video games about the north american wars? Documentary 's Any Ken Burns style doumentary's?
Also, how did the 2011 tsunami affect the japanese spring?

 

[David bar Elias]

Does Yankee Cola experience popularity outside the USA, if not to the same scale as Coca-Cola in OTL? Are there any other soda brands that could spark an alternate version of the Cola Wars?

By 2024, Yankee Cola is sold outside of the United States, but has to compete with different brands elsewhere in the world.

After the end of the Second Great War, the dominance of Yankee Cola in the US market was not significantly challenged by either domestic or foreign competitors.

 

[David bar Elias]

How did the Russian military performs in the fourth Pacific war (did they learn about mistake in the two great wars) and how their participation in the war affect Russia, like military losses and cultural changes in the Russian populous?

The military of the Russian Republic generally performed well during the Fourth Pacific War against the Japanese Empire, although the Russian military was still in a process of reform that was intended to address of failures of the military under the Russian Empire during the Second Great War.

The losses of the Russian military during the Fourth Pacific War were not as high as during the Second Great War.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Always loved this timeline. I’m sure this has been asked before but can we get some threadmarks?