Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Poland. Poland is already on its way to a regional power. It bounced back after taking vengeance on the Reich.
The German language would not be extinct though. I can see the statelets still speaking it.
The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery
- Thread starter CalBear
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The German language would not be extinct though. I can see the statelets still speaking it.
So it’s likely that the center of European power would be shifted back to the Mediterranean after centuries of being dominated by Central and Northern Europe?
But why not Turkey?
After the fall of Rome in 476 AD, the power has shifted to the Byzantine Empire or the Eastern Roman Empire before it shifted northwards to the Carolingian/Frankish Empire in the days of Charlemagne.
Oh right, Turkey would also be a Mediterranean Power. I forgot to mention about that.
Yes, it has shifted again to the Med.
Perhaps France would also be a second-world status by ATL 2100. ATL France isn't the same status with OTL France. I wonder though if Britain would return Brittany and Normandy to the French. It is still the reason why relations between the UK and France are strained in the post-Second Global War world.
How would historians view the Germanic tribes of Late Roman period which is a potential to reenable the revival of Latin as a language?
What would become largest cities in Europe?
I had imagine if the Nazis would perform Operation Sea Lion, despite its risks and the war would prolong in the alt-AANW universe where the Nazis would give occupied British Isles, a AANW France treatment. How does it affects the view of Northern Europe through the eyes of scholars from Mediterranean countries?
Actually, isn't most Europe of 2023 closer in living standards to OTL latin America?
Europe being closer to OTL LatAm is far closer to being correct. Other comparing them to Somalia and/or Syria would mean you got nearly an entire continent of failed states that have hit rock bottom and stayed there, which is very much an exaggeration of post-war Europe.
True, while much of Europe was probably closer to Somalia and Syria when the Reich was smashed into tiny pieces at 1960. They would have had 60 years to recover as well as a rest of the world that wanted Europe to recover.
The Germanic Tribes would be seen as part of German history from that period to the permanent breakup of Germany in 1960.
The largest cities of Europe totally depends on what country they are in. Italian cities that were attacked by the Reich for surrendering to the allies would have long-recovered by then. Cities like Madrid, Barcelona, and Lisbon would probably be closer to their OTL equivalents because Spain and Portugal were virtually untouched by the war. Berlin is a no go zone and Paris is just destroyed.
True that Europe is not fully recovered from 20 years lasted WW2 but it would be insulting to say that they are not better than Somalia or Syria. Many European countries would have living standards of Latin America. And few would have even comparable to OTL Eastern/Mediterranean Europe. But still ot of better than Somalia. Such comparison might had been true in 1960's but it would be better in 2023.
Hard to say. My prediction until 2100 about Europe: China launch its bioattack sometimes in 2020's or in 2030 at latest. It devastates lot but not much worsely than Spanis Flu. Europe would still climb towards. After German statelets have paid all of their reparations by 2060 them have allowed bit bigger independence but unification is still stricktly barred altough there might be some pro-unification movememtens but they are pretty much pacifist movements.
Russia might has annexed Soviet Union after it has became basically dead nation.
Probably there is just bunch of local powers instead one or two one. Of course Britain would be still strongest European country but local powers probably would are Spain, Italy and perhaps Poland. Finland could be too such since it has lot of resources and better economy even in 2023 than mediocre European country. France could be possible too but it should collect its shit.
I bit doubt that German would happen such thing what for Latin did. The language would be still used on inter-statlet trade and diblomacy. And people probably would still move between statelets. So there hardly is much divergment at least by 2100. It would be too short time.
I am not so sure about Greece. Even in OTL it is still pretty weak and economically not really strong. But these other nation perhaps could are pretty succesful. And Bulgaria could be too pretty succesful local power. Perhaps Croatia too.
Well, stricktly spoken Turkey is not European country. But definitely Mediterranean one yes. It has some chances to become such powerhouse than in OTL.
Just wondering how Turkey is treatening its Kurdish population. Definitely it has take softer stance since A4 would go easily pretty mad. And how Turkey is dealing with Armenian Genocide? I would suppose that Turkey is not that denial about that but not sure would it still admit such thing.
I do honestly wish we could see what the classrooms in the statelets are like. I wonder how or if they teach German history pre hitler? I could see them just banning it alltogether and basicially stripping the Germans of their right to national pride. The level of guilt the young Germans must feel would be unbelievable.
I could see them each teaching their local history up to roughly German Unification and then "the Evil Prussians conquered us, leading to Germany" moving on to the crimes of Germany in the World Wars (especially the 2nd, but probably also touching on German Empire stuff like the Herero Genocide and Rape of Belgium).
Thought this probably wouldn't work in like Brandenburg/Prussia statelets (thought I could still see Rheinland which spent all the way from the Napoleonic Wars as Prussian territory still doing something similar).
To late and France has already largely given up on getting them back as the upcoming generations have made it clear they're happy where they are. Those areas may be regrouped back into the duchy of Normandy as a fifth devolved home nation but they're going no where fast.
In any case the major powers of Europe will remain the UK, Ireland , Scandinavia (untouched by the war) and the Iberian powers (ditto). Italy and the East will probably still be very powerful but assuming the A4's will hasn't snapped (unlikely after having to put down China's biobomb plan around 2040 reinforces the need for tough love) the western European states will remain very weak.
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I can't see them banning completely teaching about German history prior rise of Hitler. It would be ridicolous and wouldn't work anyway. They could always search information from Internet and things would be bit odd since it would look like that Hitler has been there always.
Ratherly I would imaginate them focusing more of local history altough even that would too be bit hard regarding HRE and some things regarding common German history like Thirty Years War and Napoleonic Wars. German Empire might be teached as being just Greater Prussia. But not sure how it would work in East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia and Brandenburg.
Silesia and Pomerania could try to blame Prussia and separate themselves from it. Silesia was originally Bohemian/Austrian while Pomerania was Swedish/Independent after all.
East Prussia could try blaming Brandenburg or the Teutonic Order, trying to connect themselves to Old Prussians.
With Brandenburg itself I guess they could blame Prussia itself (despite Brandenburg-Prussia/Kingdom of Prussia being more of a Brandenburg dominated state than an East Prussia dominated one).
Wait, how would Poland possibly bounce back? Didn't the Nazis kill an outright majority of Poles in General Plan Ost?
IIRC a lot of Poles from the United States were lavishly equipped and further combined with the Polish Free Forces and stuff, basically became an elite crusading army (so did the Jews who wanted to fight), and after the final battles in Berlin and Nuremberg (the coup de grace came from those under British command because America couldn't deal with the idea of sending its soldiers even volunteers into the dioxin-drenched, anthrax-riddled, mine and cluster bomb covered Nazi hives that they had become) they made up like a huge majority of the people who went on to re-establish Poland. ITTL a book about how Poland rebuilt between 1960-1995 and implies that it basically had an economic miracle and HEAVY like heavier than probably any real country got foreign aid and investment from the A4 (especially the US and UK).
I would imagine them being even wealthier than OTL.
And they could join Scandinavia into dominating the Baltic Sea.
And I wonder how those former Nazis are dealing with the history of the Reich, whether they're ashamed of havign supported it.