Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[general]

Not to mention that in news releases any operation that used US forces was always phrased as "today US forces did..", whereas every other operation was "today Allied forces...".
And. he ordered his people to ignore the Australian advisers they had early on, despite them having far more, and more recent combat experience than any of the US forces because the Australian Army was a small army, therefore it had nothing to teach a big army like the US.

 

[yulzari1]

Some of it, but he even refused to substitute 'we' in place of 'I' when he said "I shall return". Man was a deGaulle level ass-hat.

De Gaulle postured deliberately to keep France in play as a major allied power to compensate for Free France being a tiny force. A conscious decision that paid off. De Gaulle never made the mistake of believing his own propaganda. MacArthur actually believed in his own bluster. De Gaulle believed in France. MacArthur believed in MacArthur………….

 

[kelgar04]

Given how heavily Shepherded MacArthurs Career was can not suprising for him believing his own hype as well as all is other failings.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Let him go count polar bears in the Aleutians or something.

Just return him to his retirement after hauling him in front of congress to answer for his failures. They did it to Admiral Kimmel with much less justification.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The worst punishment for someone like MacArthur is to be condemned to obscurity.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

As far as I understand it, the problem the American military has in late 1941/early 1942 is that it an American military 'hero' senior officer is good for publicity/propaganda. And MacArthur may be the least incompetent one available still alive and not in enemy hands.
This may be the pre-internet age that we're talking about, but someone still needs to be the voice and face of the American 'fightback', photographed for newspapers and appearing in news reels.

Of course MacArthur may be run over in this timeline by an experimental Imperial Japanese tankette that the Imperial Japanese Navy has been developing as a butterfly effect, in which case the United States will have to look for someone else...

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Sadly Big Mac was bulletproof.

He was the Rupublican party’s golden boy and he could do no wrong.

Cross party cohesion however was deemed more important than having the fool court martialled

So he got awarded the CMoH instead of for nothing more than national cohesion.


Arguably they were correct to have done so.

 

[kelgar04]

Sadly Big Mac was bulletproof.

He was the Rupublican party’s golden boy and he could do no wrong.

Cross party cohesion however was deemed more important than having the fool court martialled

So he got awarded the CMoH instead of for nothing more than national cohesion.


Arguably they were correct to have done so.

Shame that the idiot got that award instead of having his stripes torn off in disgrace.

It's an insult to those who actually got it and deserved it.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Shame that the idiot got that award instead of having his stripes torn off in disgrace.

It's an insult to those who actually got it and deserved it.

Oh I agree

It was very political

 

[MattII]

Well this time the British are in a much better position to tell the USA where to send him.

 

[Marquis]

IIRC a somewhat younger MacArthur had performed several MoH-worthy acts - which where then vetoed by senior officers.

I wonder how this affected what that young MacArthur became later in life...

 

[Winged-One]

Given many US crews ripped it out as useless (single plane only, only worked at low speed, needed a properly trained crew and was a maintenance hog) and it was not even fitted on the Lend-Lease supplied tanks, I don't think it is a selling point. Its post WW2 with dual plane and the ability to work at any speed that gun stabilisation became mandatory on MBT's.

Sure, the Americans won't/don't care for the stabilizer, but British obsession with firing on the move means that it'll be a much bigger selling point to the UK. (Especially the top brass)

 

[MattII]

Sure, the Americans won't/don't care for the stabilizer, but British obsession with firing on the move means that it'll be a much bigger selling point to the UK. (Especially the top brass)

Only if it actually works.

 

[GrahamB]

I was under the impression that the reason US crews would remove the stabilizer or consider it some sort of 'useless junk' was because crews weren't given proper training or manuals on its use, ironically because it was considered so important and useful there were overblown security concerns about the Germans getting their hands on it.
Very much a case of 'we don't want the Germans knowing about it, so our guys won't know about it either, even though we expect them to use it', rather than any failure of the device itself or of crew preferences beyond 'can't get it to work right, so let's ditch/disconnect it'.

As for MacArthur, he was a lot of things but a poser wasn't one of them. I know of at least two stories of him visiting frontline troops in the early Philippine campaign while under fire/air attack and walking straight through without once taking cover, apparently under the impression that a bullet or bomb wouldn't dare harm him. Remarkably, he was right OTL.

 

[Salamander]

I was under the impression that the reason US crews would remove the stabilizer or consider it some sort of 'useless junk' was because crews weren't given proper training or manuals on its use, ironically because it was considered so important and useful there were overblown security concerns about the Germans getting their hands on it.
Very much a case of 'we don't want the Germans knowing about it, so our guys won't know about it either, even though we expect them to use it', rather than any failure of the device itself or of crew preferences beyond 'can't get it to work right, so let's ditch/disconnect it'.

The Chieftain did a video on this. Apparently, only one US armoured unit ever got properly trained on it and they absolutely loved the stabilizer.

 

[Rickshaw]

As for MacArthur, he was a lot of things but a poser wasn't one of them. I know of at least two stories of him visiting frontline troops in the early Philippine campaign while under fire/air attack and walking straight through without once taking cover, apparently under the impression that a bullet or bomb wouldn't dare harm him. Remarkably, he was right OTL

In the Philippines he earnt the nickname "Dug out" Doug because he apparently used to hide on Corrigador than face the Japanese. Downunder he was known as a "Chocolate Soldier" who would melt if he came out in the sun. During the New Guinea campaign, he was filmed supposedly visiting New Guinea via his B-17 transport but some sharp eyed digger noted that the car that welcomed him had a Queensland car registration and the ensuing riots caused the newsreel to be withdrawn. Strange, cause in WW1 he was noted for his bravery. He had a general air of his own self-importance so great that even President Roosevelt remarked upon it after meeting him...

 

[GrahamB]

Oh, I'm not saying both aren't true. He could show great personal bravery and still be a pompous ass who I mostly know for cancelling the US 7mm cartridge, mismanaging the Philippine forces at his disposal, then completely botching the defense of those same islands that was his entire remit as military governor. For all that I can't call him an idiot because he wasn't. He just wasn't the right guy for the job but had so expertly insulated himself from getting canned like every other peacetime general or admiral who wasn't up to snuff during wartime.
I would find any excuse to have the old goat end up as a statistic in any timeline he appeared in, but I will never call him ingenuine in his personal conduct. He made a career out of being a pompous ass determined to create a mythology for himself during his own lifetime because he apparently genuinely believed in his own myth. What's remarkable is how many people he managed to convince of the same.

 

[Thoresby]

De Gaulle believed in France.

De Gaulle believed in his particular version of France. Quite a lot of French people didn't believe in his version of France though.

As far as I understand it, the problem the American military has in late 1941/early 1942 is that it an American military 'hero' senior officer is good for publicity/propaganda. And MacArthur may be the least incompetent one available still alive and not in enemy hands.
This may be the pre-internet age that we're talking about, but someone still needs to be the voice and face of the American 'fightback', photographed for newspapers and appearing in news reels.

In this tl with Britain stopping the Japanese in Malaya and possibly stopping them in Borneo the US won't be able to write off being defeated by a smaller force as Japanese super men or any of the OTL excuses. So that means either MacArthur gets thrown over the bus like Kimmel for failing to prepare and lead properly this causing defeat. Or he gets rewarded as in OTL because it's too awkward to blame anyone.

 

[naraic]

Strange, cause in WW1 he was noted for his bravery. He had a general air of his own self-importance so great that even President Roosevelt remarked upon it after meeting him.

My best read on his is below.

Even in WW1 he was captured and taken as a POW (by American soldiers).

His experience as an American prisoner shaped his desire not to become a POW again.

In all seriousness he was a good soldier in Mexican American war and WW1. He was decorated and should have been more so.

As a result of his lack of decorations and people blocking what could have been his medals of honour for political reasons he became very self centered with a desire to look out for what was best for himself.

 

[pjmidd]

Sure, the Americans won't/don't care for the stabilizer, but British obsession with firing on the move means that it'll be a much bigger selling point to the UK. (Especially the top brass)

It was not OTL, for all the reasons stated previously plus cost (Treasury loves its pennies). The British Generals knew full well what the training levels of their crews were, as well as what the limitations of the system were. They decided it would hinder not help.