lol the "minor" axis memebers are gonna get fucked over so hard when the war is over by the soviets or whoever controls the countries
Into the Fire - the "Minor" nations of WW2 strike back
- Thread starter Wings
- Start date
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
I'm enjoying the story, but a bit of an issue here.
The NZ Division (made up of 3 Brigades BTW, did you mean to say several battalions?) will not be sent into combat piecemeal. This is why it was available for Greece OTL, the final brigade had just joined it in Egypt after being diverted to the UK in May 1940, Freyberg and the NZ Government hadn't allowed it to be used in offensives while incomplete. Also it won't be under French operational command, Freyberg was very resistant to even Australian command as it was difficult enough managing the NZ-UK arrangements without throwing another set of national interests into the mix.
If Darlan does not want to leave his Toulon fleet to the Axis, Commander Teste, Provence and Brittany, CL Foch and Duplex, CA Gloire. Georges Leygues. Marseillaise, Primauguet and a certain number of DDs, torpedo boats, submarines and light ships, can he prepare for the departure of the ships? OTL he didn't want it, there he could try it.
Not that desperate yet.
Freyberg also really doesn't like inaction. He's sitting on his ass in Cairo and kind of resents not being able to go fight in Libya. When presented with Atalante, he sees the opportunity for some of his troops to gain combat experience and rushes in to propose his help. NZ battalions that would be engaged under French operational command wouldn't be as much of a problem since most of the NZ issues were inter-Commonwealth political ones. NZ troops under French or US command wouldn't pose many issues (OTL the New Zealanders didn't have many issues working under US command).
The unit engaged here would be the 4th New Zealand Infantry Brigade, and it would also conduct autonomous operations, notably for the capture of the "smaller" islands in the Dodecanese like Astypalea or Kos for example.
He might run into issues with fuel, which would force him to choose the ships he wants to take.
Some of these ships are already in Free French hands.
Wink-wink, nudge-nudge... Could a back-channel hint get a tanker or two sent to Toulon? Or maybe to Corsica? (To refuel the ships for crossing to Oran.)
OTL, French sailors tampered with the gauges to make the armistice commission believe that the tanks were empty, so all vessels was ready to sail to North Africa. Algiers (400 nautical miles) is definitely in range for ships with minimum level of fuel.
No huge fuel deposit in Corsica. Not enough for the whole fleet and probably under control of Italians. Same for a tanker, it will be prohibited by Germans.
I was thinking of sending a tanker to Corsica to refuel the fleet there.
Corsica was not occupied until after TORCH, so no Italians there.
There are no Germans in Corsica either.
There are Germans or Italians in Corsica or North Africa to supervise armistice resolutions. Not occupation forces, of course, but they could alert High command in case of violations. If retaliation action couldn't be taken against North Africa, Corsica is completely at hand and Vichy state will be the first victim in such a case.
For my list of ships supposed to be present in Toulon, I based myself on the list of ships in the hands of the FFL in this thread. By being reasonable, Darlan can select the most modern ships, cruisers and DD by recovering the fuel from aboard other ships, the old BBs may be sacrificed...
Also, even if all of and for the ships which couldn't escape from Toulon, they could be towed and scuttled in deeper water to reduce German and Italian capture risks compared to scuttling at Toulon.
How would the arrival of anonymous tanker in Ajaccio violate any element of the armistice? Would any of these "armistice supervisors" even notice?
The idea is that when French warships leave Toulon (an explicit breach of the armistice), they can steam to Ajaccio and refuel. Those "armistice supervisors" would be unable to interfere. The ships would thus be able to reach Oran in spite of not having enough fuel to begin with. Afterwards, of course the Axis can occupy Corsica. But by the the ships will be safely in Algeria.
What tanker with what fuel ? Remember Regia Marina didn't have enough for its own ships.
And all maritime traffic is monitored and registered. Fuel is a strategic asset and have been burnt in France before seized by Germans. One can imagine any smell of petrol will rally all German and Italian logistics.
Once more, OTL the actual level of fuel in ship's tanks have been hidden to the armistice commission. It's the easiest way to prepare the escape. Refueling is a long operation that put at risk the vessels that could be intercepted and bombed (remember the Roma even if it won't be with guided bomb at this time or the Lancastria and lots of ships moored in Gironde estuary in June 1940). And 400 nautical miles is not a big deal, only 5 to 10 % of the autonomy of a combat vessel, meaning if you have one tenth of fuel into the tanks, you have your ticket to Algiers. Toulon to Ajaccio is 140 nautical miles, why making it complicated when you can go straight to the liberty. In the worst case, some ships will ran out of fuel in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. Let's send them tugs to try to save them (or use destroyers to tow them).
What on earth does the Italian fuel situation have to do with this? My idea is that Britain/Free France send a tanker, flying French colors, to Ajaccio. It's highly unlikely anyone will even notice it; neither the Germans nor the Italians would be patrolling the waters west of Corsica with much energy.
In a very routine way. The Axis has more important things to do than devote microscopic attention to every ship arriving or departing from obscure French ports far away from any combat zone.
The fuel would be coming from Allied sources, not occupied France. Why would you imagine otherwise?
The Axis didn't bother trying to seize fuel from Vichy or occupied France because there was none to speak of there. Especially at this time, when the USSR is supplying the Axis with lots of oil.
There was a comment to the effect that the French did not have enough fuel for all the ships in Toulon to get away. I have merely suggested a workaround for that problem.
Again, I responded to the suggestion that the ships at Toulon did not have enough fuel for that. If they do, then the suggested workaround is unnecessary.
OK, this is the point.
OTL, it remained enough fuel for all ships to sail to North Africa in 1942, at least for the Flotte de Haute Mer with all the main vessels (BC, Cruisers, DDs, subs...), so it was in the beginning of 1941. Admiral Darlan ordered the fleet to sail to Dakar, meaning there was much more fuel that needed to reach North Africa. Unfortunately, he was in Algeria and Laborde refused to obey.
See (in French) :
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
How is this scenario living out the name, "minor" nations strike back? I am mostly seeing talk about France. Not my idea of a minor nation.
Norway and Belgium evacuated much more of their armies ITTL than IOTL (and the Belgian king got out instead of turning himself in to the Germans...)... This'll likely imply significant changes later.
Hey Wings, not meaning to be off topic, but will you ever go back to Silver Road and Golden Stripes?
What will?
Oops, corrected. Next update is scheduled for next week, probably around the Indochina conflict.
Because of Germans being incredibly suspicious of what's going on in Tunisia, the fuel shortages will come earlier than OTL.
Yes, the chance of sending a tanker to Corsica is minimal, especially since refueling takes time and Darlan would not want to be intercepted by the Italians.
Free France and Vichy France were both minor nations. But any talk of France doing better automatically makes them a "major nation". Despite this, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway and Denmark are all doing better than OTL. Belgium especially has a full Army Corps in Britain right now. And Yugoslavia and Greece are entering the fray soon.
I plan to but I do not know when exactly. I have the results of last season, I just need to find a moment to actually put the work into the wikiboxes and the writing.