1) Hope there's some sort of reform that shows all the people of Sicily-Italy that they will be treated as true Romans, not just the orthodox
2) Great news!
An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
2) Great news!
Wow after almost half a year of not checking this story, the terrible pace of this current story arc didn't change at all. I've noticed a constant losing pace with no end in sight not even some chapter where there's some slight stop.
I gotta admit after the Demetrios Sideros arc or Great Latin war / Roman succession war which arguably the greatest arc where ups and downs of the tone of story was superb (even better than Andreas Niketas and time of troubles arc ). After that arc it's been nothing but horrendous pacing and questionable direction.
I noticed quite more people are voicing on making even Rome suffer for whatever reason. Ofc some of those are ok but the other suggestions are just going to kill the love for this series. I don't know how many left or got disinterested on this current story arc. But the terrible decisions on how it's currently written at least for me, makes me think that they too probably felt at a loss.
Might reply to any arguments to refute my argument, in any case I sincerely hope that the current story arc change on how it's written and go back to how Great Latin war arc style of writing.
I gotta admit after the Demetrios Sideros arc or Great Latin war / Roman succession war which arguably the greatest arc where ups and downs of the tone of story was superb (even better than Andreas Niketas and time of troubles arc ). After that arc it's been nothing but horrendous pacing and questionable direction.
I noticed quite more people are voicing on making even Rome suffer for whatever reason. Ofc some of those are ok but the other suggestions are just going to kill the love for this series. I don't know how many left or got disinterested on this current story arc. But the terrible decisions on how it's currently written at least for me, makes me think that they too probably felt at a loss.
Might reply to any arguments to refute my argument, in any case I sincerely hope that the current story arc change on how it's written and go back to how Great Latin war arc style of writing.
Are you paying the writer to write the story to your specs? No? Well...
While I'm one of the people who really liked the idea of the *Roman* empire (and they are) keeping the Eternal City I suspect the Sophia faction will be thinking about not looking a gift horse in the mouth in regard to spanish non intervention south of Lazio, you also have to think about whether the sentimentality, prestige, nostalgia etc of holding the city in a world where religion still matters massively is worth more than getting rid of another barrier to good relations with Western Europe. At the end of the day there's probably not going to be much stopping them from taking it back during an enlightenment type of era in a century or two if basileus wants to, and even if he didn't its his own story, let's be grateful it even exists in the first place.
I 100% expected this to happen, and that was before the anti-Latin pogrom even happened, which sealed it.
It's a huge blow to Roman prestige and political influence in Italy (with places like Genoa soon to follow, I think), but they're not in a position to resist the re-establishment of the Papal States. That being said, Rhomania still has Sicily (and to a lesser extent Venice) so not like they will lose everything in this war, but I have my doubts they will reclaim the Eternal City ever again.
For the Romans, I think it could signify that Rome is simply not worth the effort needed to take it again. They know what the city is like and how it's virtually a backwater compared to New Rome. Not even under the illustrious administration of the Kephale has managed to revive the city to the same level as the worst cities in Rhomania. If the Latins want something that amounts to a pile of shit on the streets of Constantinople, then let them take it.
(I prefer Rome under the Papacy rather than the Roman Empire for that reason, as they're one of the few institutions capable of reviving the city to a level similar to its OTL counterpart)
The Romans already have their Rome, the true Rome passed down from the Roman Emperors of Antiquity, and that won't be taken away from them anytime soon.
It's a move that benefits Spain and the Papacy for the most part, but I have a feeling that this decision will doom the Neapolitan rebellion, by abandoning the Catholic rebels to the heretics. I could see a lot of Catholics (especially Sicilians) either believe that the rebellion could've been won with further Spanish-Arletian support and/or curse them for their role in the oppression or even possible genocide of Sicilian Catholics for the sake of political expediency.
A future Hobbes sure will have a lot of historical documents for inspiration. I'm hoping a counterpart will arise in Rhomania since his ideology corresponds nicely with how the Romans think.
Thank goodness.
The timeline's gotten slower because we've entered the modern era in full, meaning there are far more historical scrutiny and nuanced hindsight to go through by dint of more contemporary materials surviving. This is natural. If the pacing remained the same as it had during the early medieval updates then people would rightly call Basileus444 out for being a bad writer creating a threadbare story.
This timelines gotten better, I have no idea what people are saying. I've been here from the start and can say that compared to the start its much much much better now
Evilprodigy
Donor
Dunno what you're on about. If your problem is this isn't a constant Byzantium wank then you're reading the wrong timeline. And if you can't divorce political leadership readers can disagree with and want to see punished for their actions (nor an institution like a state benefit from such actions) from an entire country or nation of people then this also isn't a timeline for you.
Reread the very last line of the most recent update. Your comment on Rome having a 'losing pace' feels particularly strange when that is the most recent thing you should have read.
I won't speak for the writing style, because such things are artistic and art is subjective, but I have not noticed what you're claiming to be a problem. I have noticed the more dour tone but every story has its rising actions, climaxes, and falling actions. The style and prose do not strike me as in any way inferior to what came before. In several ways, they have improved. Characters are more complex, we see more diversity of perspectives, and B444 has grown increasingly more comfortable with narrative content. Andreas very much had great protagonist energy and that might just be your preferred taste in art but that's not bad. Just different.
I've been reading this timeline since highschool and I turn thirty next month. I don't think I would still be here if I wasn't enjoying myself.
Warning
Go jerk off to Byzantium elsewhere and splash other people with this verbal ejaculation.
Frankly, I think the author is being perfectly gracious not to put his work behind a paywall to avoid having to interact with this sort of trash. If I had the talent or inclination to write something like this I’d certainly not put up with this shit.
I’d prefer he continue to post here, so go away.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
His comment was impolite, but constructively so. This type of attack in response to constructive criticism is highly unwelcome here.
I fail to see even a scrap of constructiveness in that comment, but will leave it alone nonetheless.
I agree. Much of the pain isn’t coming from proximate political causes (although they are exacerbating the situation) but from broader and far-from-unique causes, such as the Little Ice Ages and the shift toward a more capitalist economy. These are issues that have to be dealt with somehow, and I think there’s a good argument for ‘getting it over with’.
Repetition is the key. Once is just an event; it’s when it becomes a pattern that it becomes a problem. My plan is that this is the last really big internal political struggle, at least under the industrial era which raises its own issues.
That’s key. Both Catholic and Orthodox need to feel they are a valued and well-treated part of the system. Look at how much the Wars of Religion cost France and that was with a Huguenot minority far smaller compared to the Catholics.
You have the right to your opinion. And I have the right to mine. And your strategy for changing my opinion has been, to be frank, rather counterproductive.
I also like the idea of Rome being part of the Empire, but at the end of the day it really is just a nice gimmick. If it can be held cheaply, nice, but it isn’t worth paying a heavy price to keep holding onto it. As for its future, I reserve the right to change my mind but currently I like the idea of Rhomania encouraging a continued split of central Italy between Tuscany-Romagna-Papacy as a way of keeping Lombardy from becoming an Italy.
That’s a major Doylist reason for putting Rome back under Papal control; I think the Papacy will simply do a better job of reviving and developing the city along with its ancient monuments (although looting of stonework, like OTL, is an obvious problem that pains me even while I understand why they did it). The Papacy is far more likely to care, while Constantinople’s attentions and resources will be constantly focused on things closer to home or more strategic and worthwhile than an outpost that’s at least a month away one-way.
Pacing isn’t the issue. While I think a legitimate criticism of pacing could be made, such criticism if genuine would be directly against the War of the Roman Succession arc as well as the current General Crisis arc. In pacing they’re similar.
So far I like the current state of affairs in Italy. The Papal States are restored but as long as Sicily and Venice remain within the Roman sphere of influence, Italy will never be unified, either from the Latins or the Romans. This means regional cultures and economies (specifically Naples and the rest of Southern Italy) are allowed to grow and thrive.
A shame about the Kephale though. Hopefully, he can retire and try to foster a Classicist cultural movement within Constantinople from what he has learned in the Eternal City.
I agree. The Papacy can revitalize the culture and the economy of the Eternal City by simply being there, which would not be the case under the Roman government, especially during the Civil War it is in now.
Personally, I'd love to see the Papal States be recognized by Orthodox and Latin nations as a neutral buffer state once the dust settles in Rhomania. It could be a way to foster mutual peace while also acting as a deterrent to Italian unification under military force.
What would be funny is if the Papacy becomes like Sicily or serbia because a Lombard ruler decides to attempt and unite non-Roman Italy.
Yep it's a real shame, he seemed like a Justinian type Rome/antiquity fanboy, would love if his efforts bore fruit elsewhere
Rhomania's General Crisis, Part 19.0: Go Forward, Part 1
New
Italy and India are two places ITTL that won't get unified unless I drastically change my plans for those areas. I plan, going forward, that a lot of Roman policy in Italy is going to be based on preventing any attempted Lombard resurgence at dominating the peninsula as had been the case in the 1500s.
I also have plans for this developing classical interest; I've already mentioned the inklings of the Grand Tour. I like the idea of this developing into a broader itinerary that starts in Rome and then goes through the eastern Mediterranean.
China: It was ruled by Timurids (the Tieh dynasty) but that was overthrown by a native revolt in the late 1500s. China is now ruled by the Zeng dynasty out of Luoyang, the ancient capital chosen deliberately as a callback to the 'good old days when China was Chinese and the barbarians were not here'. It's fairly isolationist, because of its wariness of foreigners after the Yuan and Tieh invasions.
India: Northern India is a mess and has been for some time since whenever it starts to politically consolidate, an outside force comes in and wrecks the process. A Sikh state is starting to coalesce around Delhi, but its scope is still small. The Deccan and the south are dominated by Vijayanagar, but it is undergoing its own General Crisis right now. I plan to go into more detail once Rhomania's General Crisis is done.
* * *
Rhomania’s General Crisis, Part 19.0-Go Forward, Part 1:
Rhomania’s General Crisis, Part 19.0-Go Forward, Part 1:
Rhomania’s relationship with Russia would change drastically over the course of the seventeenth century. Over that period, particularly after the Reunification of the Rus and the building of the Don-Volga canal (a project on which many German prisoners labored and many of which died), the balance of political and economic power shifted to the north. Even at its beginning, the federal Empire of the Rus had a population twice that of the Empire of the Romans, a gap which has never been narrowed even to this day. Roman products today have a deserved reputation for high quality but many could not be built without Russian raw materials, a paradigm already becoming noticeable by the 1660s.
The first serious inkling of this shift comes in late 1663 when both sides in the War of Wrath come courting the Russians. This was separate from an earlier effort sponsored by the Russian Patriarch to negotiate a settlement. Neither side was interested in a compromise; they wanted the Russians to come in on their side of the struggle.
The Russians are ambivalent about such overtures. The failure of his mediation efforts has irritated the Patriarch but there are other reasons. The last time the Russians had intervened in Roman internal affairs had been during the Orthodox War almost 150 years earlier. Although the Russian army sent to the Bosporus saw no combat, nearly half of the men had perished due to disease and deprivation. It is hardly a good advertisement.
But there are more immediate reasons. The Russians, frankly, don’t trust the Constantinople regime. While the ambitions of the war hawks are focused on other regions, such a jingoistic regime does not seem predictable and operating in good faith. The precedent of massacring foreigners in their own capital is not one to inspire confidence. It is for the same reason that the court in Georgia is also wary of the Tourmarches.
But that does not mean the Russians are willing to go to the effort of intervening directly against Constantinople, as Sophia’s envoys desire. Nor are they willing to undertake a ‘second-best’ effort, an economic boycott of Roman territories loyal to the Tourmarches, as the envoys also propose. This would be a serious blow against the Regime of the Tourmarches. Constantinople and the Pontic cities depend heavily on Scythian foodstuffs, even with Egyptian and Vlach imports, while Russian metals and forest products are an important source of raw materials needed for armaments manufacture.
Yet such a boycott would also be a heavy blow to the finances of many Russians, particularly the rich Scythian landowners who represent their principality in the Zemsky Sobor. They make a lot of money from the Black Sea trade and are not willing to take the hit to their incomes. By their calculations, they can continue selling to whoever rules Constantinople, because said ruler will need the Black Sea trade. It doesn’t matter if that is the Tourmarches or Sophia. Either way they keep making money so long as they keep selling.
The Russians will stay neutral, although given geography their balance of trade is slanted entirely pro-Constantinople even if their sentiments are pro-Thessaloniki. While failing to gain direct Russian military aid is a disappointment, ensuring a continuation of the status quo in the Black Sea is a victory for the Tourmarches.
With the Russians, both Constantinople and Thessaloniki had been making bids, but in the other major effort to gain explicit foreign aid the floor belongs entirely to Thessaloniki. That is with the Spaniards. If the support of an Orthodox power cannot be gained, then Lisbon is viewed as the next best (or least bad) choice.
There isn’t a history of military conflict such as with the Ottomans (Sophia and Iskandar the Younger may be fighting the same foe, but any alliance, if it exists, is strictly off the books) or Hungarians or Germans. The last time soldiers from Rhomania and Iberia seriously clashed on the ground in the Mediterranean, a teenage Andreas I commanded the Romans. Henri the Spider is viewed as too slippery and too far away, while the Arletians are viewed as too weak to provide the help Sophia wants.
King Joao’s patience has paid off as envoys arrive in the autumn of 1663 to negotiate directly for his aid. The seriousness of the effort is illustrated by the chief negotiator, Andronikos Sideros-Drakos, Dux of Dalmatia and Istria and a cousin of Sophia. (The vassal Duxes are descended from Demetrios III’s elder sister as well as from a cadet branch of the Drakos dynasty.)
The treaty of Lisbon is formulated by the beginning of the new year. The first clauses deal with the Eternal City and central Italy, with the arguments being largely a more formal and longer version of that between del Aguila and Kephale Lazaros. The Eternal City and the region of Lazio are to be ceded back to the Papacy, with the border to be reestablished on the old line that had existed between the Papal States and the Kingdom of Naples prior to the Roman-Byzantine reconquest. Gaeta will once again be a frontier city.
The reference to older borders is deliberate on the parts of all parties, Spaniards, Sicilians, and Romans to keep any reference or claims on the part of the Lombards out of the treaty. The Treaty of Lisbon is rewriting a part of the settlement of Italy agreed upon in the late stages of Demetrios III’s reign but none of the three want to rewrite any other parts save for these specific bits.
The loss of Rome and Lazio are bitter pills for the Romans and Sicilians to swallow. King Joao originally had not been that interested in the fate of Rome but after the anti-Catholic massacre in Constantinople, he cannot afford to not demand at least that. The Romans and Sicilians, to get Spanish aid, have no choice but to swallow it. (Constantinople propaganda, when it gets news of the treaty, sharply criticizes Sophia for the cession, not surprisingly ignoring that it was the actions of the Tourmarches that caused the pressure on Joao to demand the cession.)
Joao does what he can to sugar the draught without sacrificing the substance. The reference to the old Papal-Neapolitan border ties into one effort. There had been papal claims of overlordship in Southern Italy dating back to the days of the Norman Conquest, with the Kingdom of Sicily being a papal vassal on paper. These had been the legal basis of the Papal right to take away the kingdom from the Hohenstaufen family and cede it to Charles of Anjou.
The Romans of Constantinople had, naturally, completely ignored this after their conquest of the area, a tradition the Despots of Sicily had continued. But the claims had not been formally revoked, just ignored. In the treaty, the Papacy formally renounces these claims. This doesn’t change anything on the ground, but it does tie up a legal loose end and it is a face-saving concession of sorts to mollify the Sicilians and Romans, its real intention.
The next clauses deal with a city on the other side of the planet, a neat illustration of already-extant global interests. This is the city of Malacca, long contested between the Spanish and Romans and taken, at high cost, by the Romans during the 1630s. Joao wants it back and will not take no for an answer. Per the treaty, Malacca and all associated claims of overlordship of surrounding territories lost in the Roman conquest are returned to the Spanish. It must be noted though that the treaty does not affect Java, where Spanish-allied Sunda had been conquered by Roman-allied Mataram. Those consequences remain with all their implications for the future.
There are those, particularly in the circles associated with Rhomania-of-the-East, that are bitter about this cession, but for many Malacca is far out of sight and thus out of mind. Modern readers tend to wildly overestimate the significance of Rhomania-of-the-East, particularly in its early years. Perhaps it is because of the drama and exoticism. But more Romans lived in Nicaea in 1660 than from the area from Aden to Ambon and for all the war hawks’ talk of expansion, eastern opportunities are significant only in their neglect.
Yet there are others, even in those circles, that try and see a silver lining. One of these, somewhat surprisingly, is the former Katepano of Pahang Alexandros Mavrokordatos. He had tried and bloodily failed to take Malacca in 1636, his efforts ruined by an unexpectedly early start to the monsoon which swamped his siege efforts. After returning to the Imperial heartland, he’d been sharply criticized. Notably, he’d won a libel suit against some of his critics who’d condemned him in print for not foreseeing the monsoon’s early arrival. The judge had awarded the case to Mavrokordatos on the grounds that failure to be a prophet was not a reasonable criticism.
The whole experience had left the former Katepano rather embittered and annoyed toward many of his fellow Romans. He is hopeful that the shock of losing Malacca might force them to look on the eastern waters more seriously and intelligently. Certainly, the situation there is dire. One historical analogy sometimes bandied about is that the Romans and Spanish had fought a naval equivalent of the last Roman-Sassanid war, both sides pummeling each other into exhausted impotence, leaving the field open to a fresh and unexpected third party.
That party is the Lotharingians, both the Triune-controlled southerners and the still-independent northerners, shifting their energies from European to eastern waters. While the main centers of Roman power in the east have remained secure, the Lotharingians have made significant inroads in the interstices of the Katepanates. And there are the local players to consider as well, making for an active and chaotic scene, from battered but still-potent Aceh, to Siak, Makassar, and Sulu, amongst others.
The last Roman concession is probably the most important in Joao’s eyes. Looming over all his calculations is the impending threat of a personal union between the Triple Monarchy and Arles, effectively restoring the pre-Ninety Years War kingdom of France and bringing its writ to the Pyrenees. Joao does not want that threat but if he has to fight to prevent it, he wants allies and thus far he has been unsuccessful.
Internal support from Arles is underwhelming thanks to skillful intrigue and bribery on the part of Henri II, living up to his moniker “the Spider”. The Lombards are aligned with the Triunes, the Russians are too distant and apathetic, and the Holy Roman Empire is a broken fragmented reed. The Aragonese and the Islanders support Joao, with the former in particular feeling especially threatened, but their military strength is small.
Joao now has something rather more serious. Sophia agrees to a military alliance with Spain, in public a defensive pact covering their respective European territories, but in a secret clause this is really directed against allowing a Triune union with Arles. Some Romans argue that this concession is also in the interests of Rhomania. Others disagree, asserting that Triune control over Arles is too distant to be a threat, or at least not enough of one to justify the expense of trying to prevent it.
Now comes the payoff for Sophia and her partisans. The first is in Italy. Joao has supported the rebellion in Rome and in return condemns the one in Naples. He ignores the Catholic element there, focusing on the efforts of commoners seeking to upend the social order and an overly ambitious noble trying to throw off his sovereign. Put that way, King Joao is highly unsympathetic and makes that clear. (There are some secret clauses regarding protection for Sicilian Catholics; Joao does not want another anti-Catholic pogrom. But presentation matters. Massacring Catholics is bad, but massacring rebels who just happen to be Catholics can be tolerated. It is a tightrope but one Despot Andreas, who wants to crush the revolt in Naples but not alienate other loyal Catholics, is also walking.)
He is not going to do anything direct against the Neapolitans but makes it publicly clear that they will receive no aid, in any form, from Spain. (This is why the Catholic protection clauses are secret.) This is a devastating blow for Neapolitan morale; their most creditable hopes had been contingent on foreign aid. The Papacy, for its part, still wants a successful Neapolitan revolt; an independent Campania would be a useful buffer for Lazio. But the amount of aid the Curia can send is far less than that Spain could provide, and until they are securely in control of Rome and Lazio, the Curia won’t do anything to jeopardize that primary goal.
This is useful but the next payoff is the big one, the reason for all the concessions. The key advantage the Tourmarches have possessed thus far is their command of the sea. For all the glamor and success of Kanaris and Kalomeros, they have not seriously endangered that command. This is not for lack of trying, but the disbalance of ships makes it unrealistic. A Spanish fleet, much greater than that which anchored off Civitavecchia, should do much to address that.
Joao had also offered land forces but Sophia’s envoys want only naval support. The provision of ships is viewed as less politically volatile than creating the specter of Latin troops marching through Roman territory. The decline of his offer doesn’t bother Joao since he thereby gets what he wants more cheaply. But he promptly sets to work to fulfill his end of the bargain, dispatching orders to the relevant naval yards to begin preparing the fleet.