A Second Tirpitz

[larpsidekick]

Fall Feuerzauber
27 Juli 1936
This operation is of the highest secrecy, to be communicated only to War Ministry and Chancellry
To aid in the restoration of stability to the Iberian peninsular, elements of the Spanish army of Morocco are to be transported to the mainland. All available transport planes are to be made available to the commanding general of these troops – one Francisco Franco – and to be supported by sufficient fighter planes and anti aircraft guns
To ensure the secrecy of these operations the Spanish-Moroccan Transport Company and joint Raw Materials and Goods Purchasing Company are to be established. Shipping is also to be provided to ensure sufficient materials are transported to support the Spanish and German forces.
Italian bases are open to allow movement from Germany to Morocco without flight over France.
If necessary to ensure the success of this stability mission, supply and operation of tanks and artillery, and the use of the transport planes in their bomber role is authorised.

Adolf Hitler​

To ensure that this local difficulty does not expand into a pan-European conflict, we have agreed that no European power shall intervene in Spain. A joint naval patrol was suggested by the British but this was turned down by the Italians with our support. All nations will instead patrol in separated sea zones. This was not pressed by the British – indeed, their focus is obviously on the political crisis at home.

Joachim von Ribbentrop Jan 1937​

Deutshcland has been bombed while patrolling to help the Spanish people resolve their difficulties and protect the peace of Europe. The dead are heroes to the Volk and should be regarded as heroes by all the people of Europe. As such recognition has not been forthcoming from any nation other than Italy, we are withdrawing from the false non-intervention pact which has served only to aid the spread of communism. In this we are joined by Il Duce, as a sign of his personal disgust with the lack of appreciation from the democracies of Europe. I have also instructed heroic efforts from the working men in the shipyards and factories to ensure that the new, stronger ships being built are completed even more quickly so any such attack will be swiftly swatted from the sky.

Adolf Hitler, Speech to the Reichstag, May 1937​

 

[larpsidekick]

The German Reich is no longer willing to tolerate the suppression of 10 Million Germans across its borders

Adolf Hitler to Reichstag Mar 7 1938​

The statements coming from the government of Germany are predicated upon the ideal that there are millions of Germans here, in Austria, who are desperate to join their greater german empire. It is only right that we see if this is true, and so on 13 March I put to the people of Austria the question of whether they wish to remain independent of any other nation

Schuschnigg, Mar 9 1938​

We have noted the pleas of your people, the cry to become one greater german empire and to end this Versailles enforced separation, while you stand, blind and deaf to their call. You are therefore notified that unless all offices of state are handed to the leadership of the DNASP by 1300 today the full might of the german nation in arms shall be used to affect this outcome

Inter-governmental note, Germany to Austria Mar 11 1938​

His Majesty’s government shall view any attempt to coerce a sovereign nation into giving up its rightful independence to be subsumed into your nation as the action of a state unwilling to uphold the peace of Europe, and as an act unfriendly to His Majesty.

British Ambassador to German Government 11 Mar 1938​

On orders received yesterday at around noon, we marched into Austria, to be met with flowers, flags and cheering. It is as well that we did, as comms between units was terrible and there were big problems with units jamming the line of march. We were about 6 hours late to our objectives and it can’t have been much better anywhere.

Diary of Feldwebel Gerhardt Liebstadt 12 Mar 1938​

I imagine that according to the temperament of the individual the events which are in our minds to-day will be the cause of regret, of sorrow, and of indignation. They cannot be regarded by His Majesty's Government with indifference or equanimity. They are bound to have effects which cannot yet be measured. The immediate result must be to intensify the sense of uncertainty and insecurity in Europe. Unfortunately, while the policy of appeasement would lead to a relaxation of the economic pressure under which many countries are suffering to-day, what has just occurred must inevitably retard economic recovery and, indeed, increased care will be required to ensure that marked deterioration does not set in. There will be calls for action, but the hard fact is, given the lack of support from nations closer to Austria, no effective use of force would have been possible, and only force could have prevented this action. We must consider the new situation quickly, and as regards our defence programmes, we have always made it clear that they were flexible and that they would have to be reviewed from time to time in the light of any development in the international situation. Recent events constitute a change of the kind that we had in mind. Accordingly we shall in due course announce what further steps we shall take to increase the preparedness of the United Kingdom for any future shocks.

Prime Minister Chamberlain to the House Mar 13 1938​

PM Gentlemen. What is the state of readiness of our armed forces vis a vis Germany?

1st Lord We currently have sufficient ships to maintain control over the North Sea. Our building plans will ensure we can continue in this assurance against the predicted growth of the German Marine. Such an assurance will be lessened should Germany bring allies with significant fleets, or should any of the currently planned ship build be cancelled. The Royal Navy submits that further expansion of cruiser and escort vessel build programmes will be worthwhile to ensure our ability to command the sea lanes across the world.

War Minister The army has been in detailed staff talks with the French army and would form a powerful element of any plan to resist German aggression. Development of the infantry and cruiser tanks is ongoing and our newest equipment is considered at least the equal and in many ways superior to German arms. However, this equipment is not in use throughout the army and we require some time to ensure the troops are fully equipped

Air Minister It has been an element of faith for some years that the bomber will always get through, and in sufficient numbers to cause a knock out blow on a nation. This faith is in the process of being dismantled by Chain Home and the new fighter designs coming into service, but given the known numbers of German bombers it will not be until early in 1939 that we can guarantee that any attempted knock out blow will be stopped.

Emergency Cabinet Meeting 13 Mar 1939​

 

[larpsidekick]

Herr Oberstleutnant Martini, your time as chief of the board of radio affairs has been most productive, with many of your reports and notes taking the attention of my staff and a number reaching even my desk. Such diligence must be rewarded, and with the formation of our naval arm where radio contact will be so important I can see no better place for you than at its head. I therefore name you as the first Befehlfuhrer des Luftmarinetruppes with the associated promotion to Generalmajor. Congratulations General. I shall expect you to take up your post in Kiel by the end of the week.

Hermann Goering with Wolfgang Martini Feb 1938​

The role of my force is to enhance the reconnaissance of the fleet and to defend it from similar efforts by the enemy, with a tertiary responsibility for striking from the air. This role would be significantly enhanced should GEMA be able to develop an air-portable radar set which could be fitted to a Ju-87T giving the ability to identify targets from a significant distance, in the poor weather expected in the North Sea and at night. It is my submission that such radar will be of greater use than ship borne radar sets and focus should be placed upon its development

Wolfgang Martini to Erich Raeder Jul 38​

GEMA is to reduce priority on the Seetakt / Freya systems to enable development of a radar system that is capable of being used while in flight. Lead officer for this development is to be Generalmajor Martini

Erich Raeder and Hermann Goering Sep 38​

 

[Obfuscated]

Since you are mucking about with RADAR - will this increased attention alter either german development vectors (Beyond what we've seen already, IIRC initially Radar was seen by the germans as good for detecting ships and useless for anything else) or german efforts to identfiy the british home chain for what it is ?

Hm, if they are a fiddling with an airborne RADAR they might accidently stumble upon the AWACS concept by chance (While working out how to direct other craft while airborne)... which might give incentive to develop a proper 4 engine body (ie. no requirement for being a divebomber) which could be also used for a proper strategic bomber.

The concept of having flying RADAR stations might appeal to Goerings ego and IIRC flying RADAR was much harder to spoof than ground stations for Bomber Command. (Un)happy accident.

The removal of OTL Seetakt from ATL play is likely to be unimportant, british countermoves will certainly render any thought of OTL events occuring moot on their own.

 

[larpsidekick]

Since you are mucking about with RADAR - will this increased attention alter either german development vectors (Beyond what we've seen already, IIRC initially Radar was seen by the germans as good for detecting ships and useless for anything else) or german efforts to identfiy the british home chain for what it is ?

Hm, if they are a fiddling with an airborne RADAR they might accidently stumble upon the AWACS concept by chance (While working out how to direct other craft while airborne)... which might give incentive to develop a proper 4 engine body (ie. no requirement for being a divebomber) which could be also used for a proper strategic bomber.

The concept of having flying RADAR stations might appeal to Goerings ego and IIRC flying RADAR was much harder to spoof than ground stations for Bomber Command. (Un)happy accident.

The removal of OTL Seetakt from ATL play is likely to be unimportant, british countermoves will certainly render any thought of OTL events occuring moot on their own.

There's still a ideal that radar can only get ships - it's just now the carrying platform is aimed to be on a plane rather than a ship. I don't think it'll alter the views on CH - theres nothing really to change that perception (or lack of perception)

Flying radar may well come about, but certainly not in time for the war. And I think you're right - all this may be soe what moot due to timescales, although a downplaying of the land and ship based radars is likely to hurt somewhat

 

[Obfuscated]

BUT, since this effort is headed by Luftwaffe (even if they're the red-headed stepchildren in the main), if they do come up with a viable AWACS concept it much more likely to be adopted by the Luftwaffe proper than if those were Kriegsmarine developments.

Something to keep in mind: With the Luftwaffe having more say (pull ?) in naval aviation Goering will be much less hostile to aircraft and related programmes that benefit chiefly the Marineflieger (naval aircraft detachments).

Now, Germany doesn't have much a reach with naval aircraft, nor need to. So this isn't as dramatic as, say, the RAF deciding to actually like Coastal Command. But will probably have some effect (quite possible this TL's secret histories will feature some naval aircraft equivalent of the Maus (actually built) and Ratte (planned) tanks).

 

[fhaessig]

I think an awacs equivalent, even in primitive form in a Stuka is impossible for the time (too small; only one crew beside the pilot). Now on a Ju-52 or better a Condor, that's another question.

 

[pdf27]

I think an awacs equivalent, even in primitive form in a Stuka is impossible for the time (too small; only one crew beside the pilot). Now on a Ju-52 or better a Condor, that's another question.

The British did trials on a Wellington, which probably gives you a reasonable idea of how large an airframe was practically required. Still, by 1944 the US Navy was managing to fit a practical system with a range of about 100 miles into an Avenger torpedo bomber. Much bigger than a Stuka, and far more advanced radar, but not so very far off.

 

[King Augeas]

Yeah, I think it's going to be a struggle to get an operational airborne radar from a carrier aircraft in time to be useful for the Kriegsmarine. Potentially, Germany may be stuck with delayed Seetakt / Freya and not-ready-in-time airborne radar - the worst of both worlds...

 

[Ming777]

Which may be countered by the British. Perhaps it may inspire the British, who have more matured radar/RDF technology.

 

[larpsidekick]

Prepare Fall Grun, the invasion and subjugation of Czechoslovakia to begin 1 Oct 1938. Accelerate the completion and entry to service of the Battleships Bismark and Tirpitz and the Aircraft carrier Hermann Goering sufficient to put into place the KriegsMarines plans against the British by 1939

20 May 38 Adolf Hitler to OKW​

I had said that this people could not rest while 10M germans suffered outside the greater reich, and was vindicated by the return of 8M in the Ostmark, and their overwhelming joy in the return. And yet, 2M still remain, in the Sudetenland, oppressed by a regime forced upon them by the hated treaty. They suffer beatings, their property is stolen, their women raped and I demand an end to it. Their only protection can come from their returning into their greater reich, and for their lives I am prepared to spend the lives of our people. The volk will stand as one to make our people whole again! The volk will stand as one to bring down the hated treaty! The Volk will stand as one and cry return to us what is ours! Return the Sudetenland or face our wrath!

1 Jun 38 Adolf Hitler to the Reichstag​

I have to say I feel that, however badly stated and however baldly the threat against Britain is presented, Herr Hitler’s case does have some merit. The Treaty of Versailles has treated these Germans in Czeckoslovakia badly, and there is an argument that this injustice should be rectified. Benes will be furious, but we cannot risk a war now, where the cause is not wholly just – we are too weak. I will talk to him, and the French. I will give them my commitment that once the just demands are fulfilled with this action, we shall brook no more trouble from Herr Hitler

2 Jun 38 Neville Chamberlains diary​

Complex negotiations between the French, British and Czech governments took place throughout July and August 1938, against an ever increasing belligerence from Hitler. While Benes remained determined to fight to protect his country, but Britain, with France following its lead, remained concerned over its ability to prevent an air or naval knock out blow and so cautioned against war. Through the offices of Mussolini the Anglo-French were able to set up a series of meetings with Hitler at the last minute, agreeing to most of his demands. The Czechoslovak government property (chiefly arms and warlike stores) was to be repatriated to the rump state, and sufficient time given to do this, but otherwise the Czechs lost significantly, at meetings they were not even represented at. Despite this, Chamberlain was feted both by his people and world leaders for his part in preserving peace – including a telegram from Franklin D Roosevelt saying ‘good man’

Max Hastings Armageddon​

The British and French have made us defenceless, and yet promised to defend us. My thoughts drive towards resignation, and yet I feel I must stay on, for if the Germans seek to expand again maybe the knowledge of what I they have promised while looking in my eyes will force the hand of these ‘great’ powers.

Benes, Oct 1938​

We have taken a stand for justice and peace. And yet, if anything more should happen, we will stand for justice and war. The nations of the world should know that Czechoslovakia stands under our protection.

Britain has had a choice between shame and war, and chosen shame. We have stripped a weak country of its defences and allowed the bully to prosper – and now, having looked at our actions have decided in our embarrassment to declare no more bullying may take place. We have taken the shield from our friend and given a sword to our foe and stand accused in the eyes of the world.

Neville Chamberlain and Winston Churchill in House of Commons debate Oct 38​

Today, the newest battleship in the Royal Navy was launched at the Vickers Armstrong yard, ready for fitting out. The Lion will be commissioned as the most powerful ship in the world sometime in the next year, eclipsing the newly commissioned HMS Duke of York, and will be joined very soon after by its sister ships Temeraire, Conqueror, Thunderer and Captain.

The Times 28 Nov 38​

 

[larpsidekick]

The United Kingdom pledges its full support for and stand surety of the independence of the nations of Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Turkey and Greece. These nations, all with ancient roots, shall remain part of the map of Europe in perpetuity.

Neville Chamberlain in the House of Commons Nov 38​

Comrade Foreign Minister, it’s all kicking off. The capitalists want to focus their attack dog on us, and have no fear of its bite. Send feelers out to the Germans, comrade, and see what we can get for staying out of all this mess. And don’t fuck it up!

Joseph Stalin Dec 38​

The German nation under my leadership has said it will not attack Poland and the German nation under my leadership shall not attack Poland! Anyone who disputes my word disputes my honour, and that I will not stand for! Germany is not perfidious! Germany stands by its word, not its interests! Germany is not England!

Adolf Hitler to Reichstag Jan 39​

Litvinov! You’ve been fucking it up, you dolt. We need this treaty to keep the five year plan on track and by being you you’ve almost fucked it. Fuck off.

Get me Beria. And Molotov

Stalin Feb 39​

Boss, the trade agreements are being finalised as I speak. The Germans were pretty easy to negotiate with all in all – I think they wanted this as much as we did. There’s been some talk on the other matters, and they are favourable to our division of spheres of influence, but that’ll take a little more time

Vyacheslav Molotov Mar 39​

COMMUNAZI PACT SIGNED!

Time Magazine Mar 39

No one will go to war over a rump state. They gave me all I wanted before, when it was easy to oppose, and now it is difficult and they have a taste of deferring to me. Tell Benes that we will occupy his country on 14th April.

Adolf Hitler Apr 39​

We have given Herr H all he has desired in the service of Justice. The German people are now largely united. And yet he asks for more, and will ask for ever more. We have therefore given notice that should any member of foreign armed forces enter Czechoslovakia without the express permission of the Czech government Great Britain and France shall consider themselves at war with that foreign power.

Chamberlain Apr 39​

Exectue Fall Grun 0000 Apr 14 1939

OKW

 

[larpsidekick]

Naval OOB 14 Apr 1939

Royal Navy
Battleships (BB and BC)
Queen Elizabeth Class (27,500t standard; 24 knots; 4x2 BL 15 in MkI guns, varying but heavy AA fit)
HMS Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, Barham, (all Mediterranean Fleet) Malaya (in refit)

Revenge Class (29,150t standard; 21 kts; 4x2 BL 15 in Mk I guns, 14x6in guns, 2x twin mount 3in AA)
HMS Ramillies, Royal Oak, Royal Sovereign, Resolution (all Channel Fleet)

Renown Class (27,600t standard; 31.5kts; 3x2 BL 15 MkI guns, multiple AA)
HMS Renown, Repulse (Home Fleet)

HMS Hood (46,680t standard; 28kts; 4x2 BL 15in Mk I guns, heavy AA fit) (In refit)

Nelson Class (33,950t; 23kts; 3x3 BL 16in Mk I guns, heavy AA fit)
HMS Nelson, Rodney (Home Fleet)

King George V Class (43,000t standard; 28kts; 3x3 BL 15in Mk II guns, heavy AA fit)
HMS King George V, Prince of Wales, Duke of York (Home Fleet)

Lion Class (45,000t standard; 28kts; 3x3 BL 16 in Mk II guns, heavy AA fit)
HMS Lion, Conqueror, Temeraire (Commissioning, due late 39, late 39, 1940) Thunderer, Captain (In build due late 40, 41)

Aircraft Carriers (CV)
Courageous Class (24,210t standard; 30kts; 48 aircraft – Sea Gladiators and Swordfish)
HMS Courageous (Home Fleet), Glorious (Mediterranean Fleet), Furious (22,200t standard, 36 aircraft) (in refit)

HMS Argus (14,450t standard; 20kts; 18 aircraft – Sea Gladiators and Swordfish) (Mediterranean Fleet)

HMS Hermes (10,850t standard; 25kts, 20 aircraft – Swordfish only) (Home Fleet)

HMS Eagle (21,850t standard; 24kts; 20 aircraft – Swordfish only) (China Station)

HMS Ark Royal (22,000t standard; 30kts; 50 aircraft – Skua and Swordfish) (Home Fleet)

Illustrious Class (32,110t standard; 32kts; 70 aircraft – Skua and Swordfish)
HMS Illustrious, (Home Fleet) Formidable, Victorious (commissioning, due late 39) Indomitable (in build, due 1940)

HMS Unicorn (in build) – repair carrier.

Heavy Cruisers (CA)
3 Hawkins Class, 2 York Class , 13 County Class. No further heavy cruisers planned
Light Cruisers (CL)
37 of various classes ( 4 CC 4 Dido commissioning; 12 Dido and 7 CC building (various stages), further planned
Destroyers (DD)
200 DD +50 in various states of pre-commissioning and further planned
Submarines (SS)
53 - 15T 8 Grampus 3 Rivers 12S 4R 6 Parthian 9 Odin (not including training boats) plus additional planned

 

[larpsidekick]

Germany

Battleships (BB and BC)
Schnarhorst Class (32,100t standard; 31kts; 3x3 11in SK C34 guns, AA fit)
KMS Schnarhorst, Gneisenau in service
Bismark Class (43,000t standard; 30kts; 4x2 15in SK C34 guns, light AA fit)
KMS Bismark in service, Tirpitz, Friedrich der Grosse commissioning (1939, 1940) Moltke (in build, late 1940)

Aircraft Carriers (CV)
NB these are operated by the Luftwaffe with mariners transferred from the Kriegsmarine. Command of these vessels has been given to LW generals with ex-KM as the effective masters (replicating the C17th division between sailors and gentlemen commanders)
Herman Goering Class (33,550t; 35kts; 40 aircraft – Bf109T and Stuka-R)
Herman Goering (commissioning, May 1939) Graf Zepplin (commissioning, 1940)

Heavy Cruisers (PB / CA)
Deutschland Class (10,600t standard; 28kts; 2x3 11in SK C34 guns, 8x 5.9in guns, light AA)
KMS Deutschland, Admiral Scheer, Admiral Graf Spee (in service)

Light Cruisers (CL)
Emden, 3x Konigsberg Class, 8x Leipzig Class

Destroyers (DD)
16 of 1934, 1934A and 1936 Classes

 

[jsb]

Qs ?

- Why 28KN on the BBs ? if you are not treaty limited I think going for 30+ is more likely, Ie Hood&R&R/CV speed
- Why the light AA on the R class (is it just a typo)
- Bismark Class are 46/47,000t standard are they not ? (and not sure that light AA fit is compared to the Schnarhorst Class)

 

[King Augeas]

Historically, I think the Army was preparing a coup against Hitler had he gone to war at the time of Munich. This may be a few months later, but the sentiment will still be there.

Hopefully it'll fail, otherwise the TL might come to a sudden end!

 

[larpsidekick]

Historically, I think the Army was preparing a coup against Hitler had he gone to war at the time of Munich. This may be a few months later, but the sentiment will still be there.

Hopefully it'll fail, otherwise the TL might come to a sudden end!

General Oster will have his day!

 

[larpsidekick]

Qs ?

- Why 28KN on the BBs ? if you are not treaty limited I think going for 30+ is more likely, Ie Hood&R&R/CV speed
- Why the light AA on the R class (is it just a typo)
- Bismark Class are 46/47,000t standard are they not ? (and not sure that light AA fit is compared to the Schnarhorst Class)

KGV speed - My thinking behind that is that it is difficult to increase the speed of a design (which for the KGV they already had), so what the designers have done it attempted to maintain the designed speed while upgunning the ships.

R AA fit - there's only a limited amount of AA to go around, and the Admiralty is expecting to retire the Rs as the Lions come online (of course, the war will get in the way of that, and emergency updates will happen)

My books say 43k standard, 47k deep - could be wrong though. The AA is heavier than the Schnarhorst, definitely, but I still think of it as a relitvely light fit. (Of course, those are pretty subjective descriptions...)

 

[jsb]

KGV speed - My thinking behind that is that it is difficult to increase the speed of a design (which for the KGV they already had), so what the designers have done it attempted to maintain the designed speed while upgunning the ships.

R AA fit - there's only a limited amount of AA to go around, and the Admiralty is expecting to retire the Rs as the Lions come online (of course, the war will get in the way of that, and emergency updates will happen)

My books say 43k standard, 47k deep - could be wrong though. The AA is heavier than the Schnarhorst, definitely, but I still think of it as a relitvely light fit. (Of course, those are pretty subjective descriptions...)

- I just think if you are going to a totally different set of guns you will have time to redo anything else as the mounts/guns are the longest lead time, and without a 35kt limit (and I think you go to 45kt/16' if that limit doesn't hold) you may as well go for 30+ to run with the fast stuff.

- makes sense but I would use 4' guns, singles [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]4"/45 (10.2 cm) QF Mark V [/FONT](spare from rebuild to twins or use twins if you have sufficient free of the [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]4"/45 (10.2 cm) Mark XVI guns in twin Mark XIX mounting[/FONT]) rather than old 3'.

- sorry I have found to many numbers to have any clue . 41-50,kt but I would not call it light it was quite good (for its time and none DP) apart from the fact that the 37mm are single shot and slow.

 

[larpsidekick]

- I just think if you are going to a totally different set of guns you will have time to redo anything else as the mounts/guns are the longest lead time, and without a 35kt limit (and I think you go to 45kt/16' if that limit doesn't hold) you may as well go for 30+ to run with the fast stuff.

- makes sense but I would use 4' guns, singles [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]4"/45 (10.2 cm) QF Mark V [/FONT](spare from rebuild to twins or use twins if you have sufficient free of the [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]4"/45 (10.2 cm) Mark XVI guns in twin Mark XIX mounting[/FONT]) rather than old 3'.

- sorry I have found to many numbers to have any clue . 41-50,kt but I would not call it light it was quite good (for its time and none DP) apart from the fact that the 37mm are single shot and slow.

The original design was 15 in - reverting areas isn't as lengthy as designing from scratch (or at least, it isn't now. I assume it's a greater benefit when working on paper rather than CAD)

To let people know, I've just finished the Brit side of the first naval battle. Need to write the german side hopefully tomorrow, plus some fall green stuff, then I can post. Hopefully by Thursday